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advice needed on taking daughter on holiday for 5 weeks/ fathers letter of permission

advice needed on taking daughter on holiday for 5 weeks/ fathers letter of permission

Old May 22nd 2012, 4:10 pm
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Default Re: advice needed on taking daughter on holiday for 5 weeks/ fathers letter of permis

Originally Posted by ian-mstm View Post
Perhaps the "magic language" with the father's signature will suffice:

"I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States of America that the foregoing is true and correct. Executed on (date)

Print Name:

Signature:"


Ian
But they are not leaving the USA they are traveling to it. They need to be able to leave where they are, which I took to be the UK. How would the penalty be enforced.
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Old May 22nd 2012, 8:05 pm
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Default Re: advice needed on taking daughter on holiday for 5 weeks/ fathers letter of permis

Originally Posted by lansbury View Post
Can I answer this as a retired Special Branch officer who use to enforce the Child Abduction Act at Heathrow airport, and made quite a few arrests for that offence.

First you need permission full stop, regardless of the time out of the country. The 4 weeks comes in as there is a statutory defense to an allegation of child abduction, if you were out of the country on holiday. After an absence of more than 4 weeks that defense doesn't apply. The child can be prevented from leaving the UK, even for an absence of less than 4 weeks.

I sometimes randomly stopped a single parent with a child. Quite often it could be sorted by speaking with the other parent on the telephone and a few quick checks, or a visit by the local police. If you have a letter (I don't remember ever seeing a notarized one) signed by the father, the father is contactable to verify the information, or you are traveling during such times as your solicitor is contactable if the father isn't, it is normally quickly resolved. That is if you are stopped at the exit controls, or the airline decide to call in the first place.
ohh i see, well thanks for that im glad the notarizing isnt a common thing, seems im not going to be able to get one, but the letters that you did see where they just handwritten ones ? or a fancy printed up type lol, and yes im in the uk, (will be flying from manchester to jfk)
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Old May 22nd 2012, 8:06 pm
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Default Re: advice needed on taking daughter on holiday for 5 weeks/ fathers letter of permis

Originally Posted by lansbury View Post
But they are not leaving the USA they are traveling to it. They need to be able to leave where they are, which I took to be the UK. How would the penalty be enforced.
D'Oh! Sometimes, I just want to shoot myself in the head. I presumed they'd be travelling to the US and permission would be a concern upon entering the US... as opposed to a concern leaving the UK.

Ian
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Old May 22nd 2012, 8:12 pm
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Default Re: advice needed on taking daughter on holiday for 5 weeks/ fathers letter of permis

i thought the same thing, that i would more than likely be asked for it when i get to the us, rather than when im leaving the uk
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Old May 22nd 2012, 8:56 pm
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Default Re: advice needed on taking daughter on holiday for 5 weeks/ fathers letter of permis

Originally Posted by misspearce View Post
ohh i see, well thanks for that im glad the notarizing isnt a common thing, seems im not going to be able to get one, but the letters that you did see where they just handwritten ones ? or a fancy printed up type lol, and yes im in the uk, (will be flying from manchester to jfk)
Either, I've seen all sorts in my time. The important thing is to have someone available who can vouch for you, and whose bona fides can be verified. I would never hesitate to carry out whatever checks it took to make sure the child was OK to leave the UK. Having said that in the ordinary course of things you are not likely to be stopped or have a problem. The great majority have no problem at all. How old is the child?

Arrival in the US, no more than the usual formalities.
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Old May 22nd 2012, 9:26 pm
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Default Re: advice needed on taking daughter on holiday for 5 weeks/ fathers letter of permis

She will be just turned 6 on the day we fly, does age make anything different? its great to have your input!
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Old May 22nd 2012, 9:44 pm
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Default Re: advice needed on taking daughter on holiday for 5 weeks/ fathers letter of permis

Originally Posted by misspearce View Post
She will be just turned 6 on the day we fly, does age make anything different? its great to have your input!
The reason I asked is twofold. If I thought the child was capable of understanding what was happening I would often ask them why they were traveling.

I had an eight year old tell me once they were going on holiday and it must be costing dad a lot of money as he had sold everything in the house to pay for it.

I see you use miss in your username. Were you and the father married, and if not is he named on the birth certificate?
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Old May 22nd 2012, 9:48 pm
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Default Re: advice needed on taking daughter on holiday for 5 weeks/ fathers letter of permis

Originally Posted by lansbury View Post
Either, I've seen all sorts in my time. The important thing is to have someone available who can vouch for you, and whose bona fides can be verified. I would never hesitate to carry out whatever checks it took to make sure the child was OK to leave the UK. Having said that in the ordinary course of things you are not likely to be stopped or have a problem. The great majority have no problem at all. How old is the child?

Arrival in the US, no more than the usual formalities.
Just curious, how would you check that you really were speaking to the father?
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Old May 22nd 2012, 10:28 pm
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Default Re: advice needed on taking daughter on holiday for 5 weeks/ fathers letter of permis

Originally Posted by Sally Redux View Post
Just curious, how would you check that you really were speaking to the father?
Call his work and speak to his boss and then have him put on the phone. Send a local officer to his house, or work, verify his identity and then call me and put him on the phone.

Run his name through the PNC etc and then call and ask questions to verify he is who he claims to be. Bottom line any doubt the child is not allowed to travel.

But just about all cases come to notice because a parent has notified police of the possibility of the child being removed. The odds of airline or immigration staff on exit controls, or a random stop, finding a actual child abduction are small. Most genuine people traveling with a child never encounter any problems.
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Old May 22nd 2012, 10:38 pm
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Default Re: advice needed on taking daughter on holiday for 5 weeks/ fathers letter of permis

Originally Posted by lansbury View Post
Call his work and speak to his boss and then have him put on the phone. Send a local officer to his house, or work, verify his identity and then call me and put him on the phone.

Run his name through the PNC etc and then call and ask questions to verify he is who he claims to be. Bottom line any doubt the child is not allowed to travel.

But just about all cases come to notice because a parent has notified police of the possibility of the child being removed. The odds of airline or immigration staff on exit controls, or a random stop, finding a actual child abduction are small. Most genuine people traveling with a child never encounter any problems.
Thanks for the info.
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Old May 23rd 2012, 1:30 am
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Default Re: advice needed on taking daughter on holiday for 5 weeks/ fathers letter of permis

Someone hinted at the word 'Canada' which might be important here.

Canada (and Mexico) are VERY strict on the letter. I've seen many other message boards talk about the very real need for a letter of a specific type and form for people traveling through Canada, so if your flight has a layover there you might need to double check.

In the US, which does not have exit controls basically, it's the airlines that do (or do not) ask for the letter. Each airline has their own policy, so you can double check with the airline and whether or not you actually get asked is really down to the person behind the counter and how they are feeling that day. To be honest, with online checkin and automatic bag drops now days, often times you don't even see a person behind the counter anymore.

*lansbury -- when you did arrests, were they for 'notorious' abductions--i.e. someone was really trying to skip out without the other parent's knowledge, middle of the night kind of thing? I imagine some people might have missed their flights if you were busy checking on folks credentials and whatnot, but those might not have resulted in arrests.
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Old May 23rd 2012, 2:09 am
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Default Re: advice needed on taking daughter on holiday for 5 weeks/ fathers letter of permis

Originally Posted by penguinsix View Post

*lansbury -- when you did arrests, were they for 'notorious' abductions--i.e. someone was really trying to skip out without the other parent's knowledge, middle of the night kind of thing? I imagine some people might have missed their flights if you were busy checking on folks credentials and whatnot, but those might not have resulted in arrests.
I have arrested quite a few people for actual child abductions, where they were in fact attempting to remove the child permanently from the UK without leave of the Court or with the required consent. Both fathers and mothers, but mainly fathers.

We arrested an airline captain who refused to return to the gate when directed to do so. He took off with a child on board who was being abducted. The captain was arrested when he returned to the UK. His defense was it was unsafe to return to the airport having taken off. That resulted in a legal definition of when an aircraft has taken off.

People did miss flights. On only one occasion did an airline refuse to rebook the person on the next flight without any additional charge, and quite often we would get them an upgrade to recompense for the hassle.

One on an American Airlines flight to Chicago. It was two hours into the flight when the abduction was discovered, and I can still here the plaintive plea from the ground staff to not ask them to bring the aircraft back. I called the FBI at the Embassy who had the FBI in Chicago contact the immigration supervisor at ORD to verify who I was and then I called them. The father was traveling on the VWP and I convinced the guys at ORD he was not eligible to do so because he had been arrested in the past for a CIMT. They put him and child on next plane to Heathrow. Useful having a knowledge of US immigration procedures.
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Old May 23rd 2012, 2:53 am
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Question Re: advice needed on taking daughter on holiday for 5 weeks/ fathers letter of permis

Originally Posted by lansbury View Post
I have arrested quite a few people for actual child abductions, where they were in fact attempting to remove the child permanently from the UK without leave of the Court or with the required consent. Both fathers and mothers, but mainly fathers.

We arrested an airline captain who refused to return to the gate when directed to do so. He took off with a child on board who was being abducted. The captain was arrested when he returned to the UK. His defense was it was unsafe to return to the airport having taken off. That resulted in a legal definition of when an aircraft has taken off.

People did miss flights. On only one occasion did an airline refuse to rebook the person on the next flight without any additional charge, and quite often we would get them an upgrade to recompense for the hassle.

One on an American Airlines flight to Chicago. It was two hours into the flight when the abduction was discovered, and I can still here the plaintive plea from the ground staff to not ask them to bring the aircraft back. I called the FBI at the Embassy who had the FBI in Chicago contact the immigration supervisor at ORD to verify who I was and then I called them. The father was traveling on the VWP and I convinced the guys at ORD he was not eligible to do so because he had been arrested in the past for a CIMT. They put him and child on next plane to Heathrow. Useful having a knowledge of US immigration procedures.
Wow!

I know this is going totally off-topic but I feel so sad, horrified and disgusted when I read about those poor young teenage girls who have grown up in the UK but the cultural background is from Pakistan. Time and time again there are reports that they have been taken to 'visit relatives' in a Pakistani village and forced into an arranged marriage. Those who have refused to do so have often been murdered by their parents/brothers/uncles etc.

I wonder if you ever felt suspicious or had a 'gut feeling' about some scenarios where families were travelling from LHR to Karachi or Lahore but were unable to do anything about it?
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Old May 23rd 2012, 5:48 am
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Default Re: advice needed on taking daughter on holiday for 5 weeks/ fathers letter of permis

Originally Posted by Englishmum View Post
Wow!

I know this is going totally off-topic but I feel so sad, horrified and disgusted when I read about those poor young teenage girls who have grown up in the UK but the cultural background is from Pakistan. Time and time again there are reports that they have been taken to 'visit relatives' in a Pakistani village and forced into an arranged marriage. Those who have refused to do so have often been murdered by their parents/brothers/uncles etc.

I wonder if you ever felt suspicious or had a 'gut feeling' about some scenarios where families were travelling from LHR to Karachi or Lahore but were unable to do anything about it?
We once cost Parkistan International Airlines £88,000 for a delayed flight. I was working with a colleague whose family came from that part of the world. There was a family traveling and the teenage girls body language was just wrong. We ask questions got nowhere, delayed boarding did some checks, got nothing. Let them board, by now the flight was about 45 minutes late. It taxied out, we went for a coffee, walking to the coffee shop my collegue qhad second thoughts so I phoned the control tower and told them to bring it back to the gate. By the time we off loaded the family and bags the flight finally left two hours late. Pakistan government contacted the F&CO demanding payment. Fortunately my collegue sensed it right, a 15 years old being forced into an arranged marriage. Not a child abduction in the sense being discussed here, but nice to have been able to stop it.

If in doubt there is always the powers to protect a child and take them to a place of safety.
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Old May 23rd 2012, 5:53 am
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Default Re: advice needed on taking daughter on holiday for 5 weeks/ fathers letter of permis

I'm a single parent and when travelling to the U.S. was asked by U.S. immigration if my children's father knew we were travelling to which I responded that I was in fact bringing our children to see him and promptly showed my divorce paperwork showing I have custody.

I have travelled with my kids many times and apart from that one incident have never been questioned.
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