2 BritishExpats views of America
May 13th 2004, 4:25 pm
#16
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Nevada b4 California b4 Colorado b4 Valley of plastic and sand, b4 London
Posts: 2,025
I keep on hearing how the conservatives call liberals loony left etc.
Seems to me in America if you are a liberal you are automatically classified as weak on defence, free walfare to everyone,legalisation of all hard drugs, take all the wealth from the rich and give it all to the poor, anticorporation, open free border, give minorities everything they want, gay marriage etc.
May 13th 2004, 4:29 pm
#17
@matthewb76
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 21,886
Originally posted by veryfunny
I said I diagree but not in terms of how the dictionary defines it but the right wingers do.
I keep on hearing how the conservatives call liberals loony left etc.
Seems to me in America if you are a liberal you are automatically classified as weak on defence, free walfare to everyone,legalisation of all hard drugs, take all the wealth from the rich and give it all to the poor, anticorporation, open free border, give minorities everything they want, gay marriage etc.
I said I diagree but not in terms of how the dictionary defines it but the right wingers do.
I keep on hearing how the conservatives call liberals loony left etc.
Seems to me in America if you are a liberal you are automatically classified as weak on defence, free walfare to everyone,legalisation of all hard drugs, take all the wealth from the rich and give it all to the poor, anticorporation, open free border, give minorities everything they want, gay marriage etc.
May 13th 2004, 4:54 pm
#18
Septicity
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 23,762
Some thoughts on this topic…
When I arrived here almost 4 years ago, I suffered extreme culture shock. It’s actually 10 years since I lived in the UK (having lived mainly in Mitteleuropa between these times), and I found it very difficult to understand at all where they were coming from.
The first system I used to cope was to realize that the US is more easily understood not as a vast country sprawling all across a continent but simply as the biggest island in the world. This insularity is wrapped like the layers of an onion. For the great majority, the world does not penetrate beyond their immediate environment: their subdivision, their church, their children’s school. Very few will penetrate further to take in their town, maybe even the state. To most, foreign affairs is Washington, and if you asked the US equivalent of the man on the Clapham omnibus where to find the Eiffel Tower or Pyramids, my bottom dollar would surely bet on the answer – Vegas!
While blinkeredness is certainly not their unique preserve, I have found it to be most pronounced over here than anywhere else I have experienced (including my dear English mother who, when asked where Europe is, will point in a vaguely south-easterly direction and say: ‘It’s over there!’). There is simply no understanding, no knowledge, no interest in anything that is not within the immediate environment. This is local American TV – they are giving the audience exactly what they want, no more and no less.
Frightening as this is, it is then combined with a fundamentalist, biblical-like black-or-white attitude. There is no middle ground over here: something is either good or it’s bad: it certainly cannot have points in favour, points against, or – god forbid – interest points. And what is more, if you are not in full agreement with my singular interpretation of the point in hand, you are my enemy and must be against me. Surprisingly, I found a very similar attitude among the older population behind the former Iron Curtain, even those who were highly educated. I have little doubt this was caused by their isolation and constant indoctrination since the younger generations were rapidly shedding it. Unfortunately, I see no change on this side of the Pond.
It is therefore not surprising what is happening over in Iraq. Of American military might, there can be no doubt. But of foreign policy, there is no understanding of the rest of the world, no cultural sensitivity, no basis on which to build. Little wonder that Americans do not support the UN: to compromise, to discuss, to understand where the other person is coming from, to find the middle ground are all alien concepts. When they were told by W that America would bring democracy to Iraq, I am certain that most of them envisioned some hapless goat herder emerging from his cave to build a house and pool in suburbia, drive an SUV, and contribute to a 401(k) plan.
It's a worrying place for the world to be with its sole superpower in need of years of corrective therapy. Not that it's likely to bother them over here, insulated in their little islands.
When I arrived here almost 4 years ago, I suffered extreme culture shock. It’s actually 10 years since I lived in the UK (having lived mainly in Mitteleuropa between these times), and I found it very difficult to understand at all where they were coming from.
The first system I used to cope was to realize that the US is more easily understood not as a vast country sprawling all across a continent but simply as the biggest island in the world. This insularity is wrapped like the layers of an onion. For the great majority, the world does not penetrate beyond their immediate environment: their subdivision, their church, their children’s school. Very few will penetrate further to take in their town, maybe even the state. To most, foreign affairs is Washington, and if you asked the US equivalent of the man on the Clapham omnibus where to find the Eiffel Tower or Pyramids, my bottom dollar would surely bet on the answer – Vegas!
While blinkeredness is certainly not their unique preserve, I have found it to be most pronounced over here than anywhere else I have experienced (including my dear English mother who, when asked where Europe is, will point in a vaguely south-easterly direction and say: ‘It’s over there!’). There is simply no understanding, no knowledge, no interest in anything that is not within the immediate environment. This is local American TV – they are giving the audience exactly what they want, no more and no less.
Frightening as this is, it is then combined with a fundamentalist, biblical-like black-or-white attitude. There is no middle ground over here: something is either good or it’s bad: it certainly cannot have points in favour, points against, or – god forbid – interest points. And what is more, if you are not in full agreement with my singular interpretation of the point in hand, you are my enemy and must be against me. Surprisingly, I found a very similar attitude among the older population behind the former Iron Curtain, even those who were highly educated. I have little doubt this was caused by their isolation and constant indoctrination since the younger generations were rapidly shedding it. Unfortunately, I see no change on this side of the Pond.
It is therefore not surprising what is happening over in Iraq. Of American military might, there can be no doubt. But of foreign policy, there is no understanding of the rest of the world, no cultural sensitivity, no basis on which to build. Little wonder that Americans do not support the UN: to compromise, to discuss, to understand where the other person is coming from, to find the middle ground are all alien concepts. When they were told by W that America would bring democracy to Iraq, I am certain that most of them envisioned some hapless goat herder emerging from his cave to build a house and pool in suburbia, drive an SUV, and contribute to a 401(k) plan.
It's a worrying place for the world to be with its sole superpower in need of years of corrective therapy. Not that it's likely to bother them over here, insulated in their little islands.
May 13th 2004, 5:09 pm
#19
Banned
Joined: Oct 2003
Location: Yeeha, US
Posts: 739
Originally posted by manc1976
On dictionary.com
Openminded, not selfish, not bigotted (should hit a raw nerve Gross50)
People use the word liberal like a dirty word in the USA, when someone calls me a liberal I take it as a compliment as it shows the insulter to be a complete nonce that they are.
On dictionary.com
Openminded, not selfish, not bigotted (should hit a raw nerve Gross50)
People use the word liberal like a dirty word in the USA, when someone calls me a liberal I take it as a compliment as it shows the insulter to be a complete nonce that they are.
i have the following;
noun: a person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties
noun: a person who favors an economic theory of laissez-faire and self-regulating markets
adjective: having political or social views favoring reform and progress
adjective: tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition
adjective: showing or characterized by broad-mindedness (Example: "A liberal newspaper")
adjective: not literal
adjective: given or giving freely
my definition would be someone who embraces the mass media hype.
i'd rather be a bigot than a fagot. however, i am neither.
May 13th 2004, 5:15 pm
#20
@matthewb76
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 21,886
Originally posted by Gross50
thats your liberal's dictionary definition.
i have the following;
noun: a person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties
noun: a person who favors an economic theory of laissez-faire and self-regulating markets
adjective: having political or social views favoring reform and progress
adjective: tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition
adjective: showing or characterized by broad-mindedness (Example: "A liberal newspaper")
adjective: not literal
adjective: given or giving freely
my definition would be someone who embraces the mass media hype.
i'd rather be a bigot than a fagot. however, i am neither.
thats your liberal's dictionary definition.
i have the following;
noun: a person who favors a political philosophy of progress and reform and the protection of civil liberties
noun: a person who favors an economic theory of laissez-faire and self-regulating markets
adjective: having political or social views favoring reform and progress
adjective: tolerant of change; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or tradition
adjective: showing or characterized by broad-mindedness (Example: "A liberal newspaper")
adjective: not literal
adjective: given or giving freely
my definition would be someone who embraces the mass media hype.
i'd rather be a bigot than a fagot. however, i am neither.
please explain how/why dictionary.com is liberal?
May 13th 2004, 5:44 pm
#21
Through the square window
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,723
Originally posted by fatbrit
Some thoughts on this topic…
<snip>
Some thoughts on this topic…
<snip>
Welcome to the forums.
May I call you Fatty ?
May 13th 2004, 5:45 pm
#22
@matthewb76
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 21,886
Originally posted by Gross50
i'd rather be a bigot than a fagot. however, i am neither.
i'd rather be a bigot than a fagot. however, i am neither.
May 13th 2004, 5:53 pm
#23
Banned
Joined: Oct 2003
Location: Yeeha, US
Posts: 739
Originally posted by manc1976
source please?
please explain how/why dictionary.com is liberal?
source please?
please explain how/why dictionary.com is liberal?
that was me, being me.
got my definition from onelook dot com. a collection of dictonaries. the google of dictionaries too.
May 13th 2004, 5:57 pm
#24
Banned
Joined: Oct 2003
Location: Yeeha, US
Posts: 739
Originally posted by manc1976
By calling someone a faggot, you've proved you are a bigot.
By calling someone a faggot, you've proved you are a bigot.
i'm calling a spade, a spade. not a big spoon.
its just not PC. but again, i'm from the school of hard knocks.
May 13th 2004, 6:01 pm
#25
Banned
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,933
Re: 2 BritishExpats views of America
Originally posted by mcjimbo
One of the things that I believe
contributes so much to the insular attitudes of Americans is that if you
turn on the television to watch the news - and all you do is watch the
local stations - then you learn absolutely nothing about the rest of the
world, or even, the rest of the country. To call the local stations
newsbroadcasts "News" is preposterous and yet the average man/woman on
the street - this is their sole intake.<snip>
One of the things that I believe
contributes so much to the insular attitudes of Americans is that if you
turn on the television to watch the news - and all you do is watch the
local stations - then you learn absolutely nothing about the rest of the
world, or even, the rest of the country. To call the local stations
newsbroadcasts "News" is preposterous and yet the average man/woman on
the street - this is their sole intake.<snip>
I have found that if you start to try to
talk politics with them (the average middle-american) they completely
shut down. They have been taught never to discuss politics and so there
is no reasoning. They won't even express the reasons why they believe
one way or another. Very frustrating.
talk politics with them (the average middle-american) they completely
shut down. They have been taught never to discuss politics and so there
is no reasoning. They won't even express the reasons why they believe
one way or another. Very frustrating.
[/QUOTE]
May 13th 2004, 6:06 pm
#26
Septicity
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 23,762
Originally posted by Webbie
Great post there fatbrit.
Welcome to the forums.
May I call you Fatty ?
Great post there fatbrit.
Welcome to the forums.
May I call you Fatty ?
To your question...
As you appreciated my post, I'll make an exception in your case ONLY.
May 13th 2004, 6:20 pm
#27
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Nevada b4 California b4 Colorado b4 Valley of plastic and sand, b4 London
Posts: 2,025
Originally posted by Polaris_x
This comment made me laugh: " Lately I have found that lower
class republicans will not watch "CNN" because they deem it too liberal and will only watch "Fox" which is definitely rightwing. Therefore, if all they do is watch the handpicked stations and their world becomes even narrower. They listen to "rightwing" talk radio (Rush Limbaugh and his like) and believe me those guys are clever than can spin anything. (I listen to them every night to keep abreast with all the outrageous stuff they say). "
It would be like saying: "Lately I have found that lower
class democrats will not watch "Fox" because they deem it too conservative and will only watch "CNN" which is definitely leftwing. Therefore, if all they do is watch the handpicked stations and their world becomes even narrower. They listen to "leftwing" writers/actors/producers (Michael Moore and his like) and believe me those guys are clever than can spin anything. (I listen to them every night to keep abreast with all the outrageous stuff they say)."
The bottom line is that politicians ALWAYS have a spin, regarless of what side of the fence they stand. News will be slanted toward the political views of the owners/anchors. You have to watch/read/listen to as much stuff as you can to try and read through the political rhetoric, then draw your own conclusions. One only needs ask why someone would spend hundreds of millions to become President, when the job will only pay them 1 million over the 4 years. Kick backs? Survey says......"DUHHHH, YEAH!" And the kickbacks aren't party exclusive.
Bush is bad for America. Kerry is bad for America. The sad thing is, we're pretty much stuck deciding on which evil bastard we want to pseudo-lead us. Personally, I think my vote will go to Nader, or some other candidate...perhaps whoever is running under the Libertarian ticket. As long as we vote Republican or Democrat, then we'll never see any positive change.
I'd like to see socialized medicine, and at the same time end welfare (when I lost my job and was a single parent, I didn't qualify for welfare. WTF is the purpose of it then?). I'd like to see an increased minimum wage. Base the minimum wage on housing costs per county. For example, the minumum wage in San Fran would be more than in the middle of Kansas. Make the minimum wage be a "living wage", and such that a minumum wage employee could afford a medium housing structure. Give gays the right to get married. Legalize drugs. If people want to kill themselves, who am I to stop them? Make drug/alcohol laws unforgiving for driving violations. If you want to get high, or drunk, do so AT HOME. You get behind the wheel of a car, you're done. I could go on and on, but I have to get some work done.
This comment made me laugh: " Lately I have found that lower
class republicans will not watch "CNN" because they deem it too liberal and will only watch "Fox" which is definitely rightwing. Therefore, if all they do is watch the handpicked stations and their world becomes even narrower. They listen to "rightwing" talk radio (Rush Limbaugh and his like) and believe me those guys are clever than can spin anything. (I listen to them every night to keep abreast with all the outrageous stuff they say). "
It would be like saying: "Lately I have found that lower
class democrats will not watch "Fox" because they deem it too conservative and will only watch "CNN" which is definitely leftwing. Therefore, if all they do is watch the handpicked stations and their world becomes even narrower. They listen to "leftwing" writers/actors/producers (Michael Moore and his like) and believe me those guys are clever than can spin anything. (I listen to them every night to keep abreast with all the outrageous stuff they say)."
The bottom line is that politicians ALWAYS have a spin, regarless of what side of the fence they stand. News will be slanted toward the political views of the owners/anchors. You have to watch/read/listen to as much stuff as you can to try and read through the political rhetoric, then draw your own conclusions. One only needs ask why someone would spend hundreds of millions to become President, when the job will only pay them 1 million over the 4 years. Kick backs? Survey says......"DUHHHH, YEAH!" And the kickbacks aren't party exclusive.
Bush is bad for America. Kerry is bad for America. The sad thing is, we're pretty much stuck deciding on which evil bastard we want to pseudo-lead us. Personally, I think my vote will go to Nader, or some other candidate...perhaps whoever is running under the Libertarian ticket. As long as we vote Republican or Democrat, then we'll never see any positive change.
I'd like to see socialized medicine, and at the same time end welfare (when I lost my job and was a single parent, I didn't qualify for welfare. WTF is the purpose of it then?). I'd like to see an increased minimum wage. Base the minimum wage on housing costs per county. For example, the minumum wage in San Fran would be more than in the middle of Kansas. Make the minimum wage be a "living wage", and such that a minumum wage employee could afford a medium housing structure. Give gays the right to get married. Legalize drugs. If people want to kill themselves, who am I to stop them? Make drug/alcohol laws unforgiving for driving violations. If you want to get high, or drunk, do so AT HOME. You get behind the wheel of a car, you're done. I could go on and on, but I have to get some work done.
So much for caring.
May 13th 2004, 6:42 pm
#28
British/Irish(ish) Duncs
Joined: Jan 2003
Location: Cambridge MA, via Mississippi and Belfast Northern Ireland.
Posts: 700
Originally posted by Gross50
i'd rather be a bigot than a fagot. however, i am neither.
i'd rather be a bigot than a fagot. however, i am neither.
:lecture: Here's my definition of liberal:
Liberal = Not stupid, not prone to stupid ill thought out comments, articulate, intelligent...
May 13th 2004, 6:47 pm
#29
British/Irish(ish) Duncs
Joined: Jan 2003
Location: Cambridge MA, via Mississippi and Belfast Northern Ireland.
Posts: 700
Originally posted by Polaris_x
I'd like to see socialized medicine, and at the same time end welfare (when I lost my job and was a single parent, I didn't qualify for welfare. WTF is the purpose of it then?). I'd like to see an increased minimum wage. Base the minimum wage on housing costs per county. For example, the minumum wage in San Fran would be more than in the middle of Kansas. Make the minimum wage be a "living wage", and such that a minumum wage employee could afford a medium housing structure. Give gays the right to get married. Legalize drugs. If people want to kill themselves, who am I to stop them? Make drug/alcohol laws unforgiving for driving violations. If you want to get high, or drunk, do so AT HOME. You get behind the wheel of a car, you're done. I could go on and on, but I have to get some work done.
I'd like to see socialized medicine, and at the same time end welfare (when I lost my job and was a single parent, I didn't qualify for welfare. WTF is the purpose of it then?). I'd like to see an increased minimum wage. Base the minimum wage on housing costs per county. For example, the minumum wage in San Fran would be more than in the middle of Kansas. Make the minimum wage be a "living wage", and such that a minumum wage employee could afford a medium housing structure. Give gays the right to get married. Legalize drugs. If people want to kill themselves, who am I to stop them? Make drug/alcohol laws unforgiving for driving violations. If you want to get high, or drunk, do so AT HOME. You get behind the wheel of a car, you're done. I could go on and on, but I have to get some work done.
Drug use is a problem as its hard to define where self harm turns into communal harm thus hurting others and breaching the core principle of liberal(in the classical sense) thought.
You are especially right about Healthcare. Although not so much 'socialised' as simply universal it just a matter of efficiency and fairness.
Last edited by Duncs; May 13th 2004 at 6:49 pm.
May 13th 2004, 6:48 pm
#30
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: Nevada b4 California b4 Colorado b4 Valley of plastic and sand, b4 London
Posts: 2,025
Originally posted by Duncs
Thats so funny. You are so stupid you dont realise that describing someone as a 'fagot' is bigotry ergo you are a bigot and your original hypothesis is thus disproved. Thats ****ing hilarious and extremely illustrative of your overall intellectual faculties.
:lecture: Here's my definition of liberal:
Liberal = Not stupid, not prone to stupid ill thought out comments, articulate, intelligent...
Thats so funny. You are so stupid you dont realise that describing someone as a 'fagot' is bigotry ergo you are a bigot and your original hypothesis is thus disproved. Thats ****ing hilarious and extremely illustrative of your overall intellectual faculties.
:lecture: Here's my definition of liberal:
Liberal = Not stupid, not prone to stupid ill thought out comments, articulate, intelligent...