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1950s Attitudes

1950s Attitudes

Old Sep 19th 2012, 4:07 pm
  #46  
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Default Re: 1950s Attitudes

Originally Posted by HumphreyC
That theory fits for say Denmark and Sweden - but it wouldn't for say South Korea or Israel
Israel? I would say Israel is pretty secular. Of course, religious authorities (Jewish, Muslim, Christian etc.) have a strangle-hold on certain aspects of family law, but in a sense that is a holdover from the Ottoman Empire..
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 4:18 pm
  #47  
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Default Re: 1950s Attitudes

I think the impression that most women do not work in America is reflective of knowledge gained from a limited social milieu, I understand that it is the impression gained from an area of California, but America is the land where many, men and women, have to work two and three jobs just to make ends meet.
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 4:57 pm
  #48  
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Default Re: 1950s Attitudes

Originally Posted by Sally Redux
Although the expat South Koreans one meets often seem to be strongly Christian, it doesn't appear to hold for the country itself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_South_Korea

Edit: Israel???
I took the example of South Korea because there you have a country with a traditionally irreligious culture – i.e you get an eclectic mixture of beliefs and a practice of quasi-religious customs (which may be done for cultural or traditional reasons) rather than a western style organised belief system. The wikipedia article says that 46.5 % are non religious - this is from a 2005 government survey. However it was found that this demographic do engage in religious activities - i.e they take an instrumentalist approach; going to Buddhist monasteries, obtaining healing prayers from Christians and visiting Shamans for exocrisms. It's irreligious in the sense that these people don't subscribe to any one belief system. Nonetheless South Korea has has extremely high growth rates of organised religion. Furthermore the vast majority of this growth has occurred post-1953 as the country has modernized.

Israel is interesting because it was founded with socialist Zionism in the driving seat - I.e nationalistic not religious. Yet despite this it has got progressively more religious as time goes on due to shifts in culture and demographics (e.g 80% of Jewish Israelis say they believe in God up from 63% in 1993 – Israel Democracy Institute). The ultra-orthodox Haredi population will probably reach 1 million people by 2030 a trend which is leading to tensions in Israeli society. Secularism is declining even as the country is becoming a high tech superpower.

Not saying any of this is a good thing mind you. Here's an interesting counter argument -http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/paul07/paul07_index.html

Last edited by HumphreyC; Sep 19th 2012 at 6:26 pm.
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 5:16 pm
  #49  
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Default Re: 1950s Attitudes

I always thought that part of the fun of being an expat was experiencing different cultures, not looking for petty reasons for criticizing.

I went to a comedy show recently where the funniest comedian was African. He was commenting on the "economic crisis" in the UK. His response was "F*** you!! Economic crisis? Come to Africa if you want to see a REAL economic crisis!!!"

It's all a matter of perspective. You don't like some of the attitudes in your adopted place of residence? Then simply adjust and get over it ... you could be in Africa. Or Afghanistan. Or any number of places a hell of a lot worse than California. We spent decades invading countries and trying to make them like us.

If I were a redneck, I might retort "If you don't like it, go back home". But I'm not, so I won't.

p.s. I'd give up work tomorrow if I could find a woman rich enough and stupid enough to take me on.

Last edited by dunroving; Sep 19th 2012 at 5:48 pm.
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 5:31 pm
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Default Re: 1950s Attitudes

Originally Posted by dunroving
I always thought that part of the fun of being an expat was experiencing different cultures, not looking for petty reasons for criticizing.
I thought the point was to leave behind the things you bitch about in the UK, and go out into the world to find new things to bitch about.
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 5:43 pm
  #51  
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Default Re: 1950s Attitudes

Originally Posted by dunroving

It's all a matter of perspective. You don't like some of the attitudes in your adopted place of residence? Then simply adjust and get over it ...
One does, to get on with life. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong about whinging about those things amongst other folks possibly in a similar situation, rather than whinge among and offend the locals :/
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 6:07 pm
  #52  
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Default Re: 1950s Attitudes

I've lived in a uber competitive type commuter/suburban town and most of the mums there didn't work, but they also spent an absolute fortune not to be with their kids, putting them in day care, nannies, whatever, all so they can keep the social life going, or do craft type side business for fun.
Seen it myself. One woman goes on about how her only child was a blessing from God, how there was almost zero chance of being able to conceive. But he is in childcare all the time that he isn't in private school. Even on vacation they stick him in the kids club and don't see him all day. Then she'll whine about how her doctor tells her to quit her job because the stress is killing her but she can't quit because she needs to earn more money. How about cutting out the private school and cruises? Spend some time with your miracle child (who is quite clearly gay, even though he is only six).
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 6:51 pm
  #53  
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Default Re: 1950s Attitudes

Originally Posted by HumphreyC
I took the example of South Korea because there you have a country with a traditionally irreligious culture – i.e you get an eclectic mixture of beliefs and a practice of quasi-religious customs (which may be done for cultural or traditional reasons) rather than a western style organised belief system. The wikipedia article says that 46.5 % are non religious - this is from a 2005 government survey. However it was found that this demographic do engage in religious activities - i.e they take an instrumentalist approach; going to Buddhist monasteries, obtaining healing prayers from Christians and visiting Shamans for exocrisms. It's irreligious in the sense that these people don't subscribe to any one belief system. Nonetheless South Korea has has extremely high growth rates of organised religion. Furthermore the vast majority of this growth has occurred post-1953 as the country has modernized.

Israel is interesting because it was founded with socialist Zionism in the driving seat - I.e nationalistic not religious. Yet despite this it has got progressively more religious as time goes on due to shifts in culture and demographics (e.g 80% of Jewish Israelis say they believe in God up from 63% in 1993 – Israel Democracy Institute). The ultra-orthodox Haredi population will probably reach 1 million people by 2030 a trend which is leading to tensions in Israeli society. Secularism is declining even as the country is becoming a high tech superpower.

Not saying any of this is a good thing mind you. Here's an interesting counter argument -http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/paul07/paul07_index.html
It's certainly an interesting subject. I couldn't get the link to work though.
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 7:19 pm
  #54  
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Default Re: 1950s Attitudes

Originally Posted by Sally Redux
It's certainly an interesting subject. I couldn't get the link to work though.
Sorry didn't know links needed special tags.

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/paul...l07_index.html
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Old Sep 19th 2012, 7:31 pm
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Default Re: 1950s Attitudes

Originally Posted by HumphreyC
Sorry didn't know links needed special tags.

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/paul...l07_index.html
Thanks, that's an interesting article. Suggests that religion has more of a hold on Americans due to greater individual economic insecurity here compared to other advanced nations.
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Old Sep 20th 2012, 11:22 am
  #56  
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Default Re: 1950s Attitudes

Originally Posted by dlake02

Even in very family-orientated countries such as France, it is BY FAR the norm for both parents to be working.

Of our friends in the UK and France with children, not a single one of the wives stays at home out of choice. There is adequate child-care, after school programs, work place creche, etc. Again, different in the two countries (mostly state provided in France, not in the UK). It is expected that whatever your sex, you will follow a career. After all, education for a man costs the state the same as education for a women.
I don't necessarily understand your point. All over the (western) world, there are wives/mothers who go out to work and those who don't (and hold the front page, there are even house husbands too!). I'm from London and several of my mummy friends don't work (and indeed many others do). It's often down to their personal choice/career aspirations and economic situation.

Why put your kid in an after-school programme after they've already spent the whole day at school, if you don't have to? Why get someone else to look after your baby (crèche/child minder) if you don't have/want to? I'm fortunate enough that after taking a few years off to raise my babies I can now work from home whilst they are at school but most importantly, for me, still be there for my kids if they are off sick/during the holidays. I love being there when they get home from school and catching up with them about their day and helping them with their reading etc. I don't want to employ a nanny to do that for me if I don't have to. I call that "lucky" not "old fashioned". I don't feel the pressure (from society) either way (to work or to be a stay at home mum) so I'm not sure how you could call that old fashioned?

The lunch thing however would be annoying.
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Old Sep 20th 2012, 11:57 am
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Default Re: 1950s Attitudes

Here's a thought... prepare yourself a packed lunch and eat it at 13.30 hours. Problem solved
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Old Sep 20th 2012, 12:53 pm
  #58  
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Default Re: 1950s Attitudes

Originally Posted by Sugarmooma
Here's a thought... prepare yourself a packed lunch and eat it at 13.30 hours. Problem solved
This is good advice and I find packing a lunch easier & yummier in the USA than in England. Little Debbie Snack Cakes, I'm talking about.

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Old Sep 20th 2012, 1:47 pm
  #59  
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Default Re: 1950s Attitudes

Very interesting. When I (the American) moved to Aberdeen, as an American, I was surprised how many women did NOT work. Its become such a norm here in the US that for economic reasons, women work. I had no problems finding gal pals for things to do during the day.

I'd say for many families here in the US (I'm using New England to the South for my perspective) - the ones with women NOT working were generally more 'religious' - adhering to biblical teaching. You'll hear that down here in Texas a lot... Men provide, women raise kids.

BUT, you'll also find a lot of women not working as their husbands make $$$ and they CAN stay home and raise children. (Or not, whatever the choice.) Many women work simply to afford the daycare or nanny (which has already been discussed.)

My hubby is in Oil and Gas here and has women in his department who are married to men in other O&G companies but they continue to work - for resources reasons. In general, an 'average' American family cannot live comfortably on one paycheck. I grew of age in the late 80s and it was clear to my general a number of facts. 1. Don't depend on Social Security to retire. 2. You cannot move forward without at least a Bachelor's degree. 3. As a woman, plan on working.

The days of going to college to find a husband were GONE by the 80s.

As for religion - I lived years in Pakistan and Sudan. OP needs to spend some time in these areas. Or how about Utah???

I'm sorry the OP finds his environment so oppressing here to his particular moral value set. Planes do go back to the UK, don't they?
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Old Sep 20th 2012, 2:10 pm
  #60  
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Default Re: 1950s Attitudes

Originally Posted by Bomjeito
Planes do go back to the UK, don't they?
Not to be a hair splitting pedant here, but isn't "If you don't like it here, go home" in itself a rather 1950s attitude?

Especially since dlake only expressed an opinion on an observation. An observation which, except the women working part as that is a rather large variable, is pretty valid.
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