Amer20034

[email protected] (Kayumanggi) wrote:

    >Do you think this can help Filipinos who are interested to immigrate
    >to the States and become US citizens?

Have all Filipinos given up on the future of the Philippines ?

Matrix

You didn't answer the question!
Rich Wales asked you if you have actually SEEN (and read) those US passports
with YOUR OWN eyes. Have you?


"Kayumanggi" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    | Yes, those antique US citizen passports only indicate that the bearer
    | is a US citizen, no US nationals mentioned. And the holder of those
    | antique US citizen passports have no American parent, did not go
    | through naturalization, did not immigrated or resided in the US
    | mainland but only visited for a while, but who are permanently
    | residing and working in the Philippines.

Kayumanggi

No, I personally haven't seen or read it yet in my own naked eyes,
only on TV. But the good news is, anyone can personally examine and
investigate its authenticity, or hold it personally. You can bring
your own experts, history or chemist experts to test its authenticity.
Just go to this NGO's office. I'm sure they'll be very happy to
accommodate you all.

Ingo Pakleppa

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:15:27 -0700, Kayumanggi wrote:

    > No, I personally haven't seen or read it yet in my own naked eyes, only
    > on TV. But the good news is, anyone can personally examine and
    > investigate its authenticity, or hold it personally. You can bring
    > your own experts, history or chemist experts to test its authenticity.
    > Just go to this NGO's office. I'm sure they'll be very happy to
    > accommodate you all.

I don't think they need to accomodate me. I'm not the one who is
interested in this question. You made an argument, and you are the one who
would have to prove it. Rich, matrix and I merely point out where there
might be holes in it. For that matter, you also don't have to convince me
for another reason: I do think that the treatment that you seek would be
fairer. I just do not see any legal basis for it.

If you are serious about helping Filipinos get US citizenship, you don't
need to play to the audience. You need to play to the courts (a long shot)
or to Congress (an even longer shot).

I can tell that you are very passionate about this. Personally, I think
that you are wasting your passion. This game is over, and has been over at
least since Valmonte, if not since 1934.

--
Remember, I am strictly a layperson without any legal training. I encourage
everybody to seek competent legal counsel rather than relying on usenet
newsgroups.

Please support H.R. 539 and H.R. 832. More information at
http://www.kkeane.com/lobbyspousal-faq.shtml

Please visit my new FAQ at http://www.kkeane.com (always under construction)

My email address in usenet posts is now invalid for spam protection. See
my Web site for information on how to contact me.

Please feel free to enjoy some of my photographs at my new Web site
http://www.ingopakleppa.com ! Comments are welcome.

Kayumanggi

[email protected] (Amer20034) wrote in message news:...

    > Have all Filipinos given up on the future of the Philippines ?

In my point of view, there's nothing wrong with the actual
independence of the Philippines. The wrong thing is, allowing the
Philippines to become independent when it still doesn't have a Jury
System installed.

Yes, some Filipinos have given up on the future of the Philippines.
But only with its Justice System when handling high profile bad guys.
High profile crime and corruption is the root of the present poverty
in the Philippines. It's draining the government's money to pay for
its social and infrastructure development and repairs. And these high
profile bad guys are untouchable coz the Philippines doesn't have a
Jury System. Unfortunately, it's now impossible to implement the Jury
System in the Philippines coz the actual people in power there don't
want the Jury System installed coz they will end up in jail for sure.
I hope that someday there would be an organization to promote the Jury
System in the Philippines. Or I hope there is someone out there
specializing on the Jury System or has the talent to start an
organization specializing for such a particular matter to start
promoting the Jury System to be installed in the Philippines someday.

Even Filipino-American US soldiers would die for America if need be.
In fact, the first case of the three US soldiers stationed at a road
checkpoint on Northern Iraq during Operation Iraqi Freedom, who were
killed by an Iraqi suicide bomber, wherein one of those three US
soldiers killed was actually a Filipino-American US soldier. And also
during Operation Iraqi Freedom, a US supply convoy was hit and
captured by Iraqi forces. The captured American POWs were humiliated
by the Iraqis by broadcasting their video around the world, showing
they are kept in a hospital room. One of the American POWs who is
said to be the only American POW captured in Iraq who didn't show a
frightened face is a Filipino-American. President W. Bush also
personally awarded a Filipino-American US soldier with a Purple Heart
while sitting on his wheelchair, for doing his duty on Operation Iraqi
Freedom. And during the early months of the year 2001 a US spy plane
accidentally collided with a Chinese jet fighter and then made an
emergency landing on Chinese territory. The American spy plane's crew
were captured and interrogated by the Chinese for about a week. One
of that US spy plane's crew is also a Filipino-American.

So, you don't have to worry about Filipinos immigrating to the States.
It's now proven that Filipinos are successful in integrating to
American society. First generation Filipino immigrants may still look
and act like 3rd world people and some may temporarily rely on welfare
programs, but it's proven that they and their children (the second
geners) do grow up as normal genuine Americans and become productive
taxpayers. No problem about that. That's what they said about the
first generation Irish and Italian immigrants during the 19th and
early 20th century. People said that the Irish and Italians are a
burden. But the Irish and the Italians have proven that they and
their children (second geners) did grow up as genuine Americans and
became productive taxpayers too. Again, in most cases, first
generation immigrants will still act, behave, and look like what they
are when they were still in their country of origin, but the second
generation immigrants (their children) will grow up as normal genuine
Americans and become productive taxpayers. The pioneers and the
European immigrants have gone through that same by generation gradual
behavioral integration too. Or in other words, even the pioneers and
first generation European immigrants would also look 3rd world in the
eyes of present day Americans.

Even before 1935 or 1946 (Philippine independence) majority of
ordinary Filipinos don't want independence. Most Filipinos don't want
to become Filipino citizens in the first place. Only the elite wants
independence coz they don't want the Jury System to be installed in
the Philippines coz it will immediately put them in jail coz of their
past abuses towards ordinary Filipinos. The elite controls the
politics and media in the Philippines even in the old days. Ordinary
Filipinos had no voice back then. And some of the ethnic indigenous
Filipino tribes even wanted to apply for Statehood for their areas
instead of being part of the Independent Republic of the Philippines,
but sadly they were ignored, their voices were not heard. Therefore,
be rest assured that most Filipinos are Americans by heart or by
personal choice, or don't want to become Filipino citizens in the
first place even before 1935 and 1946 (Philippine Independence)
happened. And again, be rest assured that Filipinos whole heartedly
love America not just for economic reasons.

The Asian triad has now entered the Philippines, illegal drug lords,
illegal gambling lords and such. They now made friends with corrupt
Filipino politicians and with some of the elite. They're untouchable
coz we don't have a Jury System in the Philippines. The Philippines
today is like the State of New York or New Jersey during the time of
the Italian-American mafias. If the State of New York or New Jersey
has no Jury System then the Mafia can easily bribe and intimidate a
single Judge. The mafia would then have reasonably full control of
those States if they didn't have a Jury System. That's what's
happening in the Philippines today coz we don't have a Jury System.

The Philippines was doing just fine at the early decades of
independence coz they don't have the same level of corruption and high
profile crimes as they have now. And the Asian triad has not yet
entered the Philippines during those early decades of independence.
Even though the Philippines have a communist rebellion problem in
those days the Philippines was still performing well. They may have
squatters in Manila (Philippine Capital) in that time but they are
mostly refugees escaping the crossfire between Philippine soldiers and
the Communist rebels at the provinces, so their poverty is not much
caused by corruption as it is now. Anyway, some of the people who
joined the Communist rebels have joined coz they want to seek justice
for the injustices committed by some of the untouchable elite towards
them. But if the Philippines had a Jury System, then they would have
attained justice even without having to join the Communist rebel
movement in the first place. Then there would be no Communist
rebellion movement in the Philippines in the first place during the
cold war era.

Kayumanggi

Well the thing is, you can't blame them for pursuing this case anew,
coz this was the situation. When the Valmonte case was finished and
obviously the Filipinos lost that case, everybody did accept that
that's it! It's over! They've lost! You know, everybody have
already accepted that they've lost the case! And that's it! Nada!
It's over! Just like what you're saying.

Then I think months or years later, suddenly, Filipinos were
approaching the immigration lawyer of Valmonte showing their antique
US citizen passports. So obviously, coz of that, everybody was
suddenly surprised by the existence of those antique US citizen
passports that are strictly for US citizens only! Or nobody knew that
those antique US citizen passports ever existed before! Everybody was
so surprised that Filipinos were issued US citizen passports that are
strictly for US citizens only, during US colonial times! So, they
examined it. Called some experts to check its authenticity and it
came out okay. And that's only when that everybody decided to pursue
this case anew or to give it a try again. Coz they have a new
evidence to present.

To make it clear, during the Valmonte case, all the people involved in
the Valmonte case were not aware of the existence of those antique US
citizen passports and that in the year 1942 Filipinos are reclassified
as US citizens. Those antique US citizen passports and the 1942
reclassification were not included in the evidence. The only argument
that the Filipinos presented is the 14th amendment.

http://www.tourolaw.edu/2ndCircuit/F.../96-41940.html

And of course, later they've discovered in the internet that in the
year 1942 Filipinos are reclassified as US citizens. And so I think
they also contacted the people who posted that information in their
site, etc etc. That too will be presented as evidence.

So that's why we can't blame them for trying this case anew, coz of
the new evidences that can be presented in court. And which may lead
to the changing of existing laws etc etc. You know, if you have new
evidence, then go try it! Nothing wrong with that.

Amer20034

The Jury System is not infallible.
Juries can be rigged.
Filipinos need to work hard to make the Philippines a better place
to live in for themselves and their descendants.
Maybe a regime-change is in order

If Filipinos think they have a "right" to come here because their country
is going down the drain, then all Chinese, Indians and Russians have
that same "right" too.
The USA will become one big mess then, with all kinds of
hyphenated-Americans trying to show why their "kind" has done more
for the U.S, and we will begin to see real American refugees
trying to get out of the USA in little boats.
The USA is not the world's largest land mass.
We cannot accomodate everyone in the world here.
If we tried to, we will become like Sao Paulo or Mexico City.
Or worse, like Manila.

So, was Ferdinand Marcos a better leader for Philippines than the
clowns running the place today? Has the quality of life in the Philippines
improved since Marcos left and the Philippines kicked the U.S. 7th Fleet
out of the Philippines?

Rich Wales

"Kayumanggi" wrote:

> Then I think months or years later, suddenly, Filipinos
> were approaching the immigration lawyer of Valmonte
> showing their antique US citizen passports. . . .

The existence of "antique" US passports, apparently identifying
the bearers as full-fledged US citizens, would obviously be an
interesting development. However, in and of itself, it would
NOT prove that there was a statute (law) in effect before 1946
declaring all Filipinos to be US citizens.

Even if no other explanation can be found (e.g., naturalization
of the individual passport bearers), it might simply be the case
that the US consular officials who issued the passports made
a mistake (e.g, perhaps no one noticed that the passports in
question didn't properly indicate the bearer's true status).
And a US passport issued by mistake can NOT force the US to
accept as a citizen someone who, in fact, never should have been
issued the passport (or should have been issued a passport with
a restrictive notation).

As I suggested before, someone (in the Discovery Crusade of the
Philippines or some other group) needs to do a thorough search
for a specific statute (i.e., act of Congress) conferring US
citizenship (not just US nationality) on all Filipinos. The
existence of the "antique" passports might possibly be evidence
suggesting that such a statute might exist -- but it's not proof.
And if a statute does exist, an exhaustive search of United
States Statutes at Large (known in legal circles as "Stat.")
will eventually find it. Conversely, if no trace of such a
statute can be found in Stat., that's overwhelming evidence
that no such statute was in fact ever enacted by Congress.

Unless an actual statute can be found, no US court is likely to
rule that all pre-1946 Filipinos were US citizens (given that
the statutes generally known to exist on the subject declare
Filipinos to be non-citizen US nationals). Not even the exis-
tence of the "antique" passports is likely to be good enough,
because in the absence of statutory backing for citizenship for
the bearers of the passports, the courts are virtually certain
to conclude that the passports were issued in error.

Similarly, the web sites claiming a 1942 "reclassification" of
all Filipinos as US citizens may perhaps be evidence suggesting
that there was a statute to this effect. But unless someone
can find the actual statute, there's no point in going to court;
the web sites themselves are useless as evidence in court. At
least, in this case, there is a limited time range (just one
year, 1942) -- and it should be possible for someone to contact
the authors of the web sites and ask them for their sources for
their claim.

Obviously, if a a new case on this topic comes before the courts,
I'll be very interested in hearing about it (at least for the
sake of curiosity). If I seem skeptical, it's only because the
kinds of new evidence you've been bringing up so far are clearly
not going to be enough to pique the interest of any US court,
and I honestly think anyone pursuing this case is wasting their
time unless they can find an actual, literal statute supporting
their view.

Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

Folinskyinla

Hi:

Read Matter of Villanueva regarding effect of US Passports

It is decision #2968 which can be found at http://www.usdoj.gov/eoir/vll/intdec/lib_vol19idx.html

This case did not involve Filipinos at all -- and it did NOT involve the "national" and "citizen" issue at all. The question was whehter or not Villanueva was a US citizen period for purposes of filing an I-130.

Note the HISTORY -- before 1982, passports were "prima facie" evidence of citizenship, but were NOT "conclusive" evidence of citizenship.

BTW, read the body of the case and NOT the "headnote" at the beginning. Headnotes are not law.

Rich Wales

Earlier, I wrote:

> > The existence of "antique" US passports, apparently
> > identifying the bearers as full-fledged US citizens,
> > would obviously be an interesting development. How-
> > ever, in and of itself, it would NOT prove that there
> > was a statute (law) in effect before 1946 declaring
> > all Filipinos to be US citizens.

"Folinskyinla" replied:

> Read Matter of Villanueva regarding effect of US Passports
> It is decision #2968 which can be found at
> http://www.usdoj.gov/eoir/vll/intdec/lib_vol19idx.html

Thanks for this link.

It should be noted, though, that 22 USC 2705 requires a US passport
to be accepted as conclusive evidence of US citizenship only "during
its period of validity". The US passports we've been talking about
in this thread were issued prior to 1946 (while the Philippines was
still a US possession) -- which, I would assume, means they all must
have expired decades ago, so 22 USC 2705 would not apply to them.
Would you agree?

A followup question. When one applies in person for a US passport
(via Form DS-11), one way to "prove" US citizenship is to submit
one's previous US passport. My understanding (and personal exper-
ience) is that even an =expired= US passport can be used as proof
of citizenship when applying for a new passport via Form DS-11.

But what would happen if a Filipino were to apply for a US passport
now, using one of these "antique" (pre-1946) US passports in an
attempt to prove US citizenship? Would it be accepted by the Pass-
port Office, and would the applicant end up with a new US passport?

Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

Kayumanggi

Yes yes, the Jury System is not perfect. But I think the Jury System
is about probability. You know, with the Jury System at least there
is more probability of getting a true verdict, especially when
handling the cases of rich and well connected people. Unlike the
present Philippine Justice System wherein the probability of getting a
true verdict is absolutely zero whenever handling cases of rich and
well connected people.

You're correct, Filipinos will have to work hard to get the
Philippines straightened out. But still they need some leverage to do
it. (Not necessarily immigration to America or to apply for US
statehood, of course) Everybody in general needs one.

Ah yes I understand that too. Mass migration. You have a point
there. Well, I think the solution to avoid mass migration would be to
force all 3rd world countries to adopt the Jury System and America's
Electorate System etc, to straighten out all 3rd world countries. For
example, if we force all Muslim countries to adopt the Jury System
wherein half of the Jury members are always composed of women, then
that would have a positive influence to the Muslim world! The Macho
Islamic tendencies of Muslim societies will certainly be extinguished!
No more Honor killing or Honor burning of teenage Muslim girls caught
behaving like regular American teenage girls! And of course, if
America has no Electorate System, then politicians will only meet the
needs of the State of California and ignore the needs of the rest of
the US states. Coz California has the biggest population number of
voters concentrated in one immediate area. That's what's happening in
the Philippines, you know. Most of the time, Philippine politicians
only meet the needs of Metro Manila (Philippine Capital) and its
surrounding provinces and other key cities coz these are where the big
population number of voters are concentrated. As much as possible,
catch them in one blow with less effort as they say. You know, the
world should adopt the things that make America work. And great!
It's all tested already. The world only needs to do are to adopt all
of it, so that 3rd world countries around the world will improve and
become a better place to live in. Therefore, there will no longer be
a need for mass migration in the first place.

Marcos' departure didn't much improve anything. In fact, things have
gotten worse. And when the Philippine government in the early 1990's
kicked out the US 7th fleet, things have gotten worse too. Literally,
the next day after the departure of the US navy and closing of US
bases in the Philippines, the Chinese Navy then immediately occupied
the oil rich islands within the 200 miles from the shoreline water
territory of the western Philippines coz the US Navy was gone. And so
the Chinese was no longer afraid to claim all of South East Asia. And
coz the Chinese Navy is not afraid of the weaker power of other South
East Asian country's Navy including the weakest the Philippines. Even
Chinese Fishing boats that illegally enter the water territory of the
Philippines are sometimes escorted by Chinese Navy boats that protects
them from being arrested by the weaker Philippine Coast Guard. Coz of
that, Chinese fishermen are free and confident in stealing tons of
commercial fish quantity from the rich fishing waters of the
Philippines. The Philippines is losing millions and millions of
dollars everyday coz of this. That never happened when the US bases
and the US navy was still in the Philippines. The US navy is indeed a
true friend of the Philippines and of the Filipinos.

The Asian triad has now entered the Philippines too, illegal drug
lords and illegal gambling lords, they are now controlling the corrupt
politics and some of the business in the Philippines. So I think,
even though the Jury System is not perfect, at least there's more
probability that those big fish bad guys will be put to jail with the
help of the Jury System. You know, it worked in New York and in New
Jersey during the days of the Italian-American mafias. May have taken
long but it worked.

But again, be rest assured that greater majority of Filipinos
sincerely love America. Mostly, it was only some of the Filipino
elite and elite Filipino intellectuals who hate America and who kicked
the US 7th fleet out of the Philippines. And yet their families are
US citizens living in the States! Talk about political hypocrites!

And BTW, a Filipino-American Fireman was also killed while he was
rescuing the victims of the 9/11 terrorist attack at the NY twin
towers. And again, even Filipino-American US soldiers would die for
America if need be, as I've already mentioned previously. Therefore
my point is, that greater majority of Filipinos sincerely loves
America.

Kayumanggi

Thanks for the advice RW, appreciate it. :-)

[email protected] (Rich Wales) wrote in message news:...
    > "Kayumanggi" wrote:
    >
    > > Then I think months or years later, suddenly, Filipinos
    > > were approaching the immigration lawyer of Valmonte
    > > showing their antique US citizen passports. . . .
    >
    > The existence of "antique" US passports, apparently identifying
    > the bearers as full-fledged US citizens, would obviously be an
    > interesting development. However, in and of itself, it would
    > NOT prove that there was a statute (law) in effect before 1946
    > declaring all Filipinos to be US citizens.
    >
    > Even if no other explanation can be found (e.g., naturalization
    > of the individual passport bearers), it might simply be the case
    > that the US consular officials who issued the passports made
    > a mistake (e.g, perhaps no one noticed that the passports in
    > question didn't properly indicate the bearer's true status).
    > And a US passport issued by mistake can NOT force the US to
    > accept as a citizen someone who, in fact, never should have been
    > issued the passport (or should have been issued a passport with
    > a restrictive notation).
    >
    > As I suggested before, someone (in the Discovery Crusade of the
    > Philippines or some other group) needs to do a thorough search
    > for a specific statute (i.e., act of Congress) conferring US
    > citizenship (not just US nationality) on all Filipinos. The
    > existence of the "antique" passports might possibly be evidence
    > suggesting that such a statute might exist -- but it's not proof.
    > And if a statute does exist, an exhaustive search of United
    > States Statutes at Large (known in legal circles as "Stat.")
    > will eventually find it. Conversely, if no trace of such a
    > statute can be found in Stat., that's overwhelming evidence
    > that no such statute was in fact ever enacted by Congress.
    >
    > Unless an actual statute can be found, no US court is likely to
    > rule that all pre-1946 Filipinos were US citizens (given that
    > the statutes generally known to exist on the subject declare
    > Filipinos to be non-citizen US nationals). Not even the exis-
    > tence of the "antique" passports is likely to be good enough,
    > because in the absence of statutory backing for citizenship for
    > the bearers of the passports, the courts are virtually certain
    > to conclude that the passports were issued in error.
    >
    > Similarly, the web sites claiming a 1942 "reclassification" of
    > all Filipinos as US citizens may perhaps be evidence suggesting
    > that there was a statute to this effect. But unless someone
    > can find the actual statute, there's no point in going to court;
    > the web sites themselves are useless as evidence in court. At
    > least, in this case, there is a limited time range (just one
    > year, 1942) -- and it should be possible for someone to contact
    > the authors of the web sites and ask them for their sources for
    > their claim.
    >
    > Obviously, if a a new case on this topic comes before the courts,
    > I'll be very interested in hearing about it (at least for the
    > sake of curiosity). If I seem skeptical, it's only because the
    > kinds of new evidence you've been bringing up so far are clearly
    > not going to be enough to pique the interest of any US court,
    > and I honestly think anyone pursuing this case is wasting their
    > time unless they can find an actual, literal statute supporting
    > their view.
    >
    > Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
    > *DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
    > or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
    > are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

Kayumanggi

[email protected] (Kayumanggi) wrote in message news:...

    > Ah yes I understand that too. Mass migration. You have a point
    > there. Well, I think the solution to avoid mass migration would be to
    > force all 3rd world countries to adopt the Jury System and America's
    > Electorate System etc, to straighten out all 3rd world countries. For
    > example, if we force all Muslim countries to adopt the Jury System
    > wherein half of the Jury members are always composed of women, then
    > that would have a positive influence to the Muslim world! The Macho
    > Islamic tendencies of Muslim societies will certainly be extinguished!
    > No more Honor killing or Honor burning of teenage Muslim girls caught
    > behaving like regular American teenage girls! And of course, if
    > America has no Electorate System, then politicians will only meet the
    > needs of the State of California and ignore the needs of the rest of
    > the US states. Coz California has the biggest population number of
    > voters concentrated in one immediate area. That's what's happening in
    > the Philippines, you know. Most of the time, Philippine politicians
    > only meet the needs of Metro Manila (Philippine Capital) and its
    > surrounding provinces and other key cities coz these are where the big
    > population number of voters are concentrated. As much as possible,
    > catch them in one blow with less effort as they say. You know, the
    > world should adopt the things that make America work. And great!
    > It's all tested already. The world only needs to do are to adopt all
    > of it, so that 3rd world countries around the world will improve and
    > become a better place to live in. Therefore, there will no longer be
    > a need for mass migration in the first place.

People will no longer need to go to America if we bring America to them.

Norm³©®

I agree but they don't want our help.


"Kayumanggi" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] (Kayumanggi) wrote in message
news:...
    > > Ah yes I understand that too. Mass migration. You have a point
    > > there. Well, I think the solution to avoid mass migration would be to
    > > force all 3rd world countries to adopt the Jury System and America's
    > > Electorate System etc, to straighten out all 3rd world countries. For
    > > example, if we force all Muslim countries to adopt the Jury System
    > > wherein half of the Jury members are always composed of women, then
    > > that would have a positive influence to the Muslim world! The Macho
    > > Islamic tendencies of Muslim societies will certainly be extinguished!
    > > No more Honor killing or Honor burning of teenage Muslim girls caught
    > > behaving like regular American teenage girls! And of course, if
    > > America has no Electorate System, then politicians will only meet the
    > > needs of the State of California and ignore the needs of the rest of
    > > the US states. Coz California has the biggest population number of
    > > voters concentrated in one immediate area. That's what's happening in
    > > the Philippines, you know. Most of the time, Philippine politicians
    > > only meet the needs of Metro Manila (Philippine Capital) and its
    > > surrounding provinces and other key cities coz these are where the big
    > > population number of voters are concentrated. As much as possible,
    > > catch them in one blow with less effort as they say. You know, the
    > > world should adopt the things that make America work. And great!
    > > It's all tested already. The world only needs to do are to adopt all
    > > of it, so that 3rd world countries around the world will improve and
    > > become a better place to live in. Therefore, there will no longer be
    > > a need for mass migration in the first place.
    > People will no longer need to go to America if we bring America to them.

lairdside

Perhaps using external force to institute a "democratic" system in a country could be can of worms all of it's own and undermine the very principles of democracy which it sought to establish?

Maybe, maybe not.
In many countries society has brainwashed not only the men but also the women. Many of the women actually believe in the propogation of the societies ideals. For instance, as far as I know Egypt is the only country in which female circumcision is performed by men, in other countries it is the women which perform this. It is not considered that a woman is respectable without circumcision and many of the women believe this. At least with a jury system where half of the jurors were women, women would have a voice but this alone may not be any guarantee of an end to repression, people can be taught to repress themselves. Throwing hardware at a sociological problem rarely ends the dilemma as the real problem has been internalised within the individual members of the society.