VWP question/flight question

Old Feb 5th 2011, 1:35 pm
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Default VWP question/flight question

Hello all,

I've been searching through the forums for a possible answer to this but no avail.

I will be travelling to the US (NY, entering through JFK) for three weeks in March-April (a friends wedding and visiting friends). I know this is completely fine on the VWP as it's a pleasure trip. However, I am also planning on going to the US June-August to travel, see friends, and to do voluntary work at a school summer programme in NYC (this is to still be confirmed by the school). I'm a teacher in the UK, have a credit card I'll be using to fund my summer visit (I'm staying with friends so don't need money for hotels etc), have a car I'm still paying for and will be renting a flat come August 2011 so have plenty of ties to the UK.

My questions are:

1) When I get asked in June at POE, do I say pleasure or business, or both? Can I not work at the school, even though it's voluntary and I won't be getting paid, under the VWP or is this completely fine? I was in the US last year for three weeks and I have NO intention of breaking any visa laws.

2) I know a lot of people on here say it's best to bring proof of ties to the UK. Would this be advisable? I could get a confirmation letter from my school stating that I have a job to return to in August, bring my car finance statement, a letter from my landlord saying I will be renting the flat from August 2011, credit card statement showing I have funds, and a letter from the school in NY if they give the OK about me helping them out during their summer programme. Would it also be advisable to have the addresses of my friends I'll be staying with (they live in CT, MA, NYC, and CA)? I know the POE officer may question why I'm back so soon after my 3 week visit during Easter - just for the record, my summer trip was planned before my friends decided to get married in the US!!

3) My third question relates to flights - if I book a return flight, and want to change the dates of departure (later or earlier, but still within the 90 day timescale) is this OK? I understand it would be because I would be admitted for 90 days at the POE.

I think that was all... Many thanks for any replies!
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Old Feb 5th 2011, 1:44 pm
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Default Re: VWP question/flight question

PS. I also forgot to add that I will be meeting with the school during my March/April visit for a research paper - I'm currently doing research about inclusion of LGBT youth in US and UK schools. Again, is this OK under the VWP? I know my POE interview may be a simple "reason for entering the US?" and "how long are you staying for?" but just in case they probe further I wanna make sure I'm as legit as possible.

Last edited by macks1985; Feb 5th 2011 at 2:20 pm.
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Old Feb 5th 2011, 2:15 pm
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Default Re: VWP question/flight question

Volunteering is fine as long as you are not doing anything someone else would be paid to do and you aren't receiving anything in return ie. Food,lodging etc.
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Old Feb 5th 2011, 3:52 pm
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Default Re: VWP question/flight question

Originally Posted by lisa67
Volunteering is fine as long as you are not doing anything someone else would be paid to do and you aren't receiving anything in return ie. Food,lodging etc.

The criteria are a little more specific than that:

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/87206.pdf

"9 FAM 41.31 N9.1-5 Participants in Voluntary Service Programs
(CT:VISA-1034; 09-24-2008)
a. Aliens participating in a voluntary service program benefiting U.S. local communities, who establish that they are members of, and have a commitment to, a particular recognized religious or nonprofit charitable organization. No salary or remuneration should be paid from a U.S. source, other than an allowance or other reimbursement for expenses incidental to the volunteers’ stay in the United States.

b. A “voluntary service program” is an organized project conducted by a recognized religious or nonprofit charitable organization to assist the poor or the needy or to further a religious or charitable cause. The program may not, however, involve the selling of articles and/or the solicitation and acceptance of donations. The burden that the voluntary program meets the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) definition of “voluntary service program” is placed upon the recognized religious or nonprofit charitable organization, which must also meet other criteria set out in the DHS Operating Instructions with regard to voluntary workers.
c. You must assure that the written statement issued by the sponsoring organization is attached to the passport containing the visa for presentation to the DHS officer at the port of entry. The written statement will be furnished by the alien participating in a service program sponsored by the religious or nonprofit charitable organization and must contain DHS required information such as the:
(1) Volunteer’s name and date and place of birth;
(2) Volunteer’s foreign permanent residence address;
(3) Name and address of initial destination in the United States; and
(4) Volunteer’s anticipated duration of assignment."

It may depend on if the school is religious/nonprofit. Based on the OP's description it doesn't sound like it is. This is a B-1/WB activity so if the person is not admitted as a visitor for business, they cannot participate.

Last edited by crg; Feb 5th 2011 at 3:59 pm.
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Old Feb 5th 2011, 4:01 pm
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Default Re: VWP question/flight question

You also have to be admitted as a volunteer; you have to be clear at the border what your activities will be. There's even a bit more to it than that; you should start with a read here and see if your activities fit.

http://london.usembassy.gov/b1.html
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Old Feb 6th 2011, 12:52 am
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Default Re: VWP question/flight question

Originally Posted by macks1985
When I get asked in June at POE, do I say pleasure or business, or both?
Pleasure... since even the voluntary stuff is your choice.


Can I not work at the school, even though it's voluntary and I won't be getting paid, under the VWP or is this completely fine?
Money isn't the only criterium used to determine "work". No money, no room and board, no free lunches, no coupons, no "tit for tat"... nothing. You do it because you want to and you get absolutely nothing in return except the experience of having done it.


I know a lot of people on here say it's best to bring proof of ties to the UK. Would this be advisable?
Yes, always!


Would it also be advisable to have the addresses of my friends I'll be staying with (they live in CT, MA, NYC, and CA)?
Yes.


I know the POE officer may question why I'm back so soon after my 3 week visit during Easter - just for the record, my summer trip was planned before my friends decided to get married in the US!!
If he asks, tell him!


My third question relates to flights - if I book a return flight, and want to change the dates of departure (later or earlier, but still within the 90 day timescale) is this OK?
Yes... but that's between you and the airline.


I understand it would be because I would be admitted for 90 days at the POE.
You are admitted for 90 days, yes. If the officer specifically asks when you're leaving - and you give him a specific date - be sure to leave on or before that date. If he never asks, you're free to stay up to the expiry date of the VW.

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Old Feb 6th 2011, 12:55 am
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Default Re: VWP question/flight question

Originally Posted by crg
Aliens participating in a voluntary service program benefiting U.S. local communities...
I'm willing to bet (although you'll probably disagree) that a "school summer programme" isn't a "voluntary service program" as defined, and so is exempt from the legal mumbo-jumbo you like to post!

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Old Feb 6th 2011, 1:26 am
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Default Re: VWP question/flight question

Originally Posted by ian-mstm
Pleasure... since even the voluntary stuff is your choice.
In order to lawfully participate in the voluntary stuff, the person must be admitted as a business visitor.

If it sounds like the school summer program wouldn't fit the definition of a voluntary service program, they may not be able to do the activity unless they get authorization (J1, H2B). The border guards could deem it an internship or work and refuse this person's entry. Even if they get in successfully, they could be refused at any subsequent entry because violating the VWP (even if not caught at the time) renders them ineligible to use the VWP again in the future.

This "legal mumbo-jumbo" is what matters when someone is crossing a border. Do you think that if this person gets jammed up, they can just say that this dude ian on the internet said I could do it and it will be cool?

What is the difference between a voluntary summer program, and an unpaid internship?

Last edited by crg; Feb 6th 2011 at 1:48 am.
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Old Feb 6th 2011, 6:37 am
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Default Re: VWP question/flight question

Originally Posted by crg
In order to lawfully participate in the voluntary stuff, the person must be admitted as a business visitor.
I don't think so.


If it sounds like the school summer program wouldn't fit the definition of a voluntary service program, they may not be able to do the activity unless they get authorization (J1, H2B).
Again... I don't think so. If it doesn't fit into "voluntary service program" then they don't need authorization to participate.


Even if they get in successfully, they could be refused at any subsequent entry because violating the VWP (even if not caught at the time) renders them ineligible to use the VWP again in the future.
If a tree falls in the forest...


What is the difference between a voluntary summer program, and an unpaid internship?
The latter is an internship, the former is not... otherwise it'd be called a voluntary summer internship. It's all in the title.

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Old Feb 6th 2011, 10:32 am
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Default Re: VWP question/flight question

Originally Posted by macks1985
I know my POE interview may be a simple "reason for entering the US?" and "how long are you staying for?" but just in case they probe further I wanna make sure I'm as legit as possible.

I flew to America over Christmas 2009, and stayed for a week with my gf. Ten days later I flew back to surprise her for her Birthday. I can't remember the exact questions I was asked by the POE, but I truthfully said I am visiting the friend I saw over Christmas as a birthday surprise. The guy smiled and a couple more questions were asked and I was let through fine.
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Old Feb 6th 2011, 10:54 am
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Default Re: VWP question/flight question

Originally Posted by ian-mstm
The latter is an internship, the former is not... otherwise it'd be called a voluntary summer internship. It's all in the title.
Ian
Ok. So they can just call it what they want, and it doesn't matter what the actual activity is. That makes perfect sense....

So, if an ian poops in the woods... and a border guard isn't around to smell it.... does it still stink?
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Old Feb 6th 2011, 1:48 pm
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Default Re: VWP question/flight question

Originally Posted by macks1985
Hello all,


3) My third question relates to flights - if I book a return flight, and want to change the dates of departure (later or earlier, but still within the 90 day timescale) is this OK? I understand it would be because I would be admitted for 90 days at the POE.
Speaking from my experience, if you are asked when your return flight is, please be aware that you may only be admitted into the US until that date and your passport will be stamped and dated with that departure date. You could leave before that date but not after.
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Old Feb 6th 2011, 2:00 pm
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Default Re: VWP question/flight question

Originally Posted by usanewlife
Speaking from my experience, if you are asked when your return flight is, please be aware that you may only be admitted into the US until that date and your passport will be stamped and dated with that departure date. You could leave before that date but not after.
Qualifying the word 'may' may be helpful to the OP (although bringing up this possibility is of course also helpful in itself).

I believe that from reading the forum over the years that the two most common occurrences (by a long margin) would be admission for 90 days or refusal. It is possible to get admitted for less than 90 days but this is far from the norm. In my case I have been admitted under the VWP in the region of 25-30 times, each with a 90 day stamp.

Can you elaborate on your experience of receiving a 'shorter' stamp? Just interested in case there were any other unusual factors.
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Old Feb 6th 2011, 2:43 pm
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Default Re: VWP question/flight question

Originally Posted by tonrob

Can you elaborate on your experience of receiving a 'shorter' stamp? Just interested in case there were any other unusual factors.
During my frequent visits to the US over the last 10 years, always entering through the VWP, I received a shorter stamp on just one occasion. I believe it was because I was returning to the US only 6 weeks after my last trip. I was not taken to a secondary interview at that time.
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Old Feb 6th 2011, 2:46 pm
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Default Re: VWP question/flight question

i flew to washington dc on dec 28 2010,at poe i was asked where i was stopping for the first night,why i was visiting i came to see my girlfriend for the first time so i just said visiting friends and sightseeing which i was. i was asked how long i was staying so said 10 days the border official stamped my passport until march 28 2011.
it was very easy and it took me 25 minutes from getting off the plane to walking through the doors at arrivals and giving my gf the best kiss ever xxxxxxxxxxxxx
i know she reads my posts so ill tell her i love her too xxxxxxxoooo
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