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US Citizenship with police caution help

US Citizenship with police caution help

Old May 1st 2020, 3:02 am
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Default US Citizenship with police caution help

Hi

Have been a US resident for nearly 4 years now and I would like to apply for US citizenship through my wife.

However, I do have a UK police caution from 2012 for Common Assault (got into a fight with a family member). I did disclosed this on my residency application 5 years ago, had the police certificate in the packet, but I don’t think it even came up as a concern.

So I will disclose that I have been arrested on the citizenship application, but I am not sure what documents I need to provide them to show the details of the arrest. All I have is a police certificate saying common assault.

I spoke with a US immigration/citizenship lawyer and they said to get as much information from Uk police/courts as possible as a police certificate may not be enough. This being that a caution does not translate to the US and whoever deals with my application will have to be persuaded that it was not a crime of moral turpitude.

I contacted ACRO and Met police but they keep telling me to apply for a police certificate, or just hang up.

Has anyone else been in this situation and can advise what I can obtain from the Uk police to show more details of this caution?

thanks


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Old May 1st 2020, 8:04 am
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Default Re: US Citizenship with police caution help

Interesting. I always believed that a caution entailed no jail time by definition. So, I cannot figure out why you are asking. I am not going to answer your questions but I will say that providing accurate information is necessary to get a good answer from anyone who is willing to answer.
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Old May 1st 2020, 10:24 am
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Default Re: US Citizenship with police caution help

Originally Posted by S Folinsky
Interesting. I always believed that a caution entailed no jail time by definition. So, I cannot figure out why you are asking. I am not going to answer your questions but I will say that providing accurate information is necessary to get a good answer from anyone who is willing to answer.
Hi, correct, no jail time but I was arrested and kept for an hour, so I would like to be able to show why. This is on the advise of a immigration lawyer.

I would like to know what documents other people in the same situation provided as part of their application.
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Old May 1st 2020, 1:14 pm
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Default Re: US Citizenship with police caution help

SAR request to the nick that dealt with you and to the court that dealt with you. Document your attempts. That's pretty much all you can do.

always believed that a caution entailed no jail time by definition. So, I cannot figure out why you are asking.
You are required to declare any arrests or convictions. The caution is a conviction for immigration purposes. This is well trodden ground. The OP might be overdoing it, since this has all been declared before, but better to be safe than sorry.
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Old May 1st 2020, 7:11 pm
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Default Re: US Citizenship with police caution help

Originally Posted by Z3usx
Hi, correct, no jail time but I was arrested and kept for an hour, so I would like to be able to show why. This is on the advise of a immigration lawyer.
I’m now retired but still do some volunteer work (or did before the pandemic, but I digress). I will tell you that your inquiry does not hang together. Something is wrong and I don’t care to dig to find out what.
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Old May 1st 2020, 7:37 pm
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Default Re: US Citizenship with police caution help

Originally Posted by civilservant
The caution is a conviction for immigration purposes. This is well trodden ground.
You are correct that the effect of a UK caution is well trodden ground. See this article posted in BritishExpats. Although it may have immigration consequences, it is not a “conviction.” Even if you say so, your conclusion is without basis.
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Old May 1st 2020, 11:49 pm
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Default Re: US Citizenship with police caution help

Originally Posted by civilservant
SAR request to the nick that dealt with you and to the court that dealt with you. Document your attempts. That's pretty much all you can do.



You are required to declare any arrests or convictions. The caution is a conviction for immigration purposes. This is well trodden ground. The OP might be overdoing it, since this has all been declared before, but better to be safe than sorry.

Thank you for the straight answer. I will get a SAR.

To clarify this is no different to my residency application, there is nothing I am hiding. I contacted a immigration lawyer fully expecting to be told there would be no issue as I already went though the process of residency and all I have to do is show the police certificate.

the purpose of coming on here was just to see what documents others in the same situation provided.
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Old May 2nd 2020, 12:40 am
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Default Re: US Citizenship with police caution help

Originally Posted by civilservant
SAR request to the nick that dealt with you and to the court that dealt with you. Document your attempts. That's pretty much all you can do.



You are required to declare any arrests or convictions. The caution is a conviction for immigration purposes. This is well trodden ground. The OP might be overdoing it, since this has all been declared before, but better to be safe than sorry.
Originally Posted by Z3usx
Thank you for the straight answer. I will get a SAR.

To clarify this is no different to my residency application, there is nothing I am hiding. I contacted a immigration lawyer fully expecting to be told there would be no issue as I already went though the process of residency and all I have to do is show the police certificate.

the purpose of coming on here was just to see what documents others in the same situation provided.
I’m not saying you are “hiding” something. That said, there is something definitely missing from your recital. For example, is that arrest and concomitant caution for assault your only brush with law enforcement? Again, I’m not saying you are hiding something.

Also, I do not consider providing misinformation to be “straight.” I consider it to be a species of “bent.”

Good luck.
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Old May 2nd 2020, 2:53 am
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Default Re: US Citizenship with police caution help

Originally Posted by S Folinsky
I’m not saying you are “hiding” something. That said, there is something definitely missing from your recital. For example, is that arrest and concomitant caution for assault your only brush with law enforcement? Again, I’m not saying you are hiding something.

Also, I do not consider providing misinformation to be “straight.” I consider it to be a species of “bent.”

Good luck.
Hi, I can assure you nothing is missing from what I have detailed here. I have never been on the wrong side of the law, UK or USA, aside from this one caution for common assault.

I don’t understand why i give you this impression?

how can I get this thread moved to another section of the forum, as I wanted this to be in the visa and citizenship forum?
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Old May 2nd 2020, 3:21 am
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Default Re: US Citizenship with police caution help

Originally Posted by Z3usx
Hi, I can assure you nothing is missing from what I have detailed here. I have never been on the wrong side of the law, UK or USA, aside from this one caution for common assault.

I don’t understand why i give you this impression?

how can I get this thread moved to another section of the forum, as I wanted this to be in the visa and citizenship forum?
I also wonder about what the immigration attorney told you. When I was in practice, I had occasion where a consulting client would tell me what another attorney had told them. I would get permission to speak to the other attorney. 90% of the time, it turned out that client had misunderstood what was said or there was a pesky little fact client had informed only one of us. On occasion, on of us was just plain wrong but reached agreement after discussion.

Also, sometimes the advice was not from another attorney at all but from a consultant or a paralegal.

Moving the question, contact a moderator.

Good luck.

Last edited by S Folinsky; May 2nd 2020 at 3:24 am.
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Old May 2nd 2020, 3:52 am
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Default Re: US Citizenship with police caution help

Thread has been moved.

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Old May 2nd 2020, 4:21 pm
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Default Re: US Citizenship with police caution help

Thanks for moving the thread.
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Old May 2nd 2020, 5:00 pm
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Default Re: US Citizenship with police caution help

I originally had it moved because you are applying for early naturalization based on marriage to a USC and the correct forum is the marriage-based forum as your application for naturalization is based on an original marriage-based visa.

While it doesn't it truly doesn't matter where it is posted, I just wanted to let you know why it was originally moved.

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Old May 3rd 2020, 5:52 am
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Default Re: US Citizenship with police caution help

The question here to me is whether naturalization has a different bar to meet when it comes to criminal offences than an immigrant petition (which OP has already succeeded in) - my understanding was no, it does not, unless the crime has been committed since LPR status was obtained (which is not the case here).

Whilst I think Mr. Folinsky is coming off a bit cryptic (which isn't all that unusual), I do agree that the basis of requiring more information around the caution specifically for naturalization doesn't seem clear.

My guess is that the attorney is just being overly cautious to cover all bases, which isn't an inherently bad thing to do, aside from making one feel like there is a problem where there may in fact not be.

Nevertheless, the SAR from the cop shop that gave you the caution to start with is what you need, as civilservant has rightly pointed out. Document the efforts to get that SAR, in case they are not able to furnish it (which does happen).

Cautions issued from 10th July 2008 onwards are treated as admissions of guilt in the context of immigration, which has the same effect as a conviction in terms of consequences. This is well trodden ground that we have consensus on, and introducing uncertainty or debate over this point is both superfluous and misleading.
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Old May 4th 2020, 3:01 am
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Default Re: US Citizenship with police caution help

Originally Posted by shiversaint
The question here to me is whether naturalization has a different bar to meet when it comes to criminal offences than an immigrant petition (which OP has already succeeded in) - my understanding was no, it does not, unless the crime has been committed since LPR status was obtained (which is not the case here).

Whilst I think Mr. Folinsky is coming off a bit cryptic (which isn't all that unusual), I do agree that the basis of requiring more information around the caution specifically for naturalization doesn't seem clear.

My guess is that the attorney is just being overly cautious to cover all bases, which isn't an inherently bad thing to do, aside from making one feel like there is a problem where there may in fact not be.

Nevertheless, the SAR from the cop shop that gave you the caution to start with is what you need, as civilservant has rightly pointed out. Document the efforts to get that SAR, in case they are not able to furnish it (which does happen).

Cautions issued from 10th July 2008 onwards are treated as admissions of guilt in the context of immigration, which has the same effect as a conviction in terms of consequences. This is well trodden ground that we have consensus on, and introducing uncertainty or debate over this point is both superfluous and misleading.
As I initially stated, OP’s description does not hang together. Rather than being “cryptic”, I can envision a plethora of different fact patterns which would trigger concerns. For example, the petty offense exception applies to only one moral turpitude crime. I would like to know why OP sought advice and how that advice came to be given.

If anything is cryptic, it is OP’s descriptions.
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