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Renounce Allegiance & Dual Citizenship

Renounce Allegiance & Dual Citizenship

Old May 12th 2006, 5:42 am
  #1  
Helm
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Default Renounce Allegiance & Dual Citizenship

I am considering applying for US citizenship because I would like to be
able to vote, etc. I am willing to fulfill my duties as a US citizen.
Nevertheless, I definitely do not want to give up my current
citizenship and I am still attached to my old country (which, for me,
does not conflict with my attachment to the US and its constitution).
Almost everybody I know who did get naturalized did not give up their
old citizenship. Though, in their oath they had to say the following:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and
abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate,
state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject
or citizen;"

So what's the deal with this? Isn't that a very clear statement to give
up any other citizenship? Most importantly, isn't that something that
could get me into trouble at some later time? Your opinion on this
matter is appreciated.

Thanks
 
Old May 12th 2006, 6:05 am
  #2  
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Default Re: Renounce Allegiance & Dual Citizenship

Originally Posted by Helm
I am considering applying for US citizenship because I would like to be
able to vote, etc. I am willing to fulfill my duties as a US citizen.
Nevertheless, I definitely do not want to give up my current
citizenship and I am still attached to my old country (which, for me,
does not conflict with my attachment to the US and its constitution).
Almost everybody I know who did get naturalized did not give up their
old citizenship. Though, in their oath they had to say the following:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and
abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate,
state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject
or citizen;"

So what's the deal with this? Isn't that a very clear statement to give
up any other citizenship? Most importantly, isn't that something that
could get me into trouble at some later time? Your opinion on this
matter is appreciated.

Thanks

You don't say what country you are from, so it is a bit difficult to address your questions. Some countries recognize dual citizenship while others do not. Your country may be ok with dual citizenship or it may not.

However, assuming your native country recognizes dual citizenship, then saying the aforementioned oath during your US naturalization ceremony isn't a problem. It would really only be a problem if you went to your native country's embassy and renounced your citizenship to that country. If you don't plan on doing that, then you should be ok.

Again, a lot depends on what country you are from, so understand that I am speaking only generally. Your actual circumstances could be very different.

~ Jenney
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Old May 12th 2006, 6:05 am
  #3  
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Default Re: Renounce Allegiance & Dual Citizenship

The US allows dual citizenship. Whether you have to renounce your other citizenship depends on the other country's laws.
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Old May 12th 2006, 7:05 am
  #4  
Joe Feise
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Default Re: Renounce Allegiance & Dual Citizenship

helm wrote on 05/11/06 22:42:

    > I am considering applying for US citizenship because I would like to be
    > able to vote, etc. I am willing to fulfill my duties as a US citizen.
    > Nevertheless, I definitely do not want to give up my current
    > citizenship and I am still attached to my old country (which, for me,
    > does not conflict with my attachment to the US and its constitution).
    > Almost everybody I know who did get naturalized did not give up their
    > old citizenship. Though, in their oath they had to say the following:
    >
    > "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and
    > abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate,
    > state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject
    > or citizen;"
    >
    > So what's the deal with this? Isn't that a very clear statement to give
    > up any other citizenship? Most importantly, isn't that something that
    > could get me into trouble at some later time? Your opinion on this
    > matter is appreciated.
    >
    > Thanks
    >


A lot of other countries do not care what you say in front of US officials. They
still consider you to be their citizen, regardless of the oath statement.
For a lot more info, check out Rich Wales' Dual Citizenship FAQ:
http://www.richw.org/dualcit/

-Joe
--
I am not a lawyer.
For reliable advice, consult a competent immigration attorney.
 
Old May 12th 2006, 7:35 am
  #5  
Helm
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Default Re: Renounce Allegiance & Dual Citizenship

I am a citizen of Switzerland. Does that help addressing the question?

You said: "It would really only be a problem if you went to your native
country's embassy and renounced your citizenship to that country.". My
understanding of the oath was that this is EXACTLY what I am supposed
to do. Your comments did get me an idea of an alternative
interpretation, though. It could be claimed that the US is allowing
dual citizenship. If on the other hand the other country does not allow
dual citizenship then there is a conflict of interest. In that case
both the US and the other country would require me to give up one of
the citizenships. If this is also your interpretation then I have the
following questions:

1) Where is it stated that the US does allow dual citizenship.

2) I believe there were cases where naturalized citizens were stripped
of their US citizenship because they did not renounce their
citizenship. If I am mistaken on this are there decisions (of lawsuits)
that show the opposite, i.e. that if both countries allow dual
citizenship one cannot be stripped off the US citizenship because the
person has not denounced his/her previous citizenship?

3) You said "It would really only be a problem if you went to your
native country's embassy and renounced your citizenship to that
country". Isn't it that if my country does not allow dual citizenship I
am supposed to do this and if it does I am free to do so?

I would appreciate if you could help me understand this a bit better.

Thanks
 
Old May 12th 2006, 7:44 am
  #6  
hioeuckj
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Default Re: Renounce Allegiance & Dual Citizenship

Thanks for your reply. I will check out this site tomorrow. I have one
question, though. You seem to address the potential problems posed by
the other country when taking on another citizenship, in this case US
citizenship. But what about the US? What is the US' stand on this?

Thanks
 
Old May 12th 2006, 10:25 am
  #7  
sgallagher
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Default Re: Renounce Allegiance & Dual Citizenship

helm wrote:
    > I am considering applying for US citizenship because I would like to be
    > able to vote, etc. I am willing to fulfill my duties as a US citizen.
    > Nevertheless, I definitely do not want to give up my current
    > citizenship and I am still attached to my old country (which, for me,
    > does not conflict with my attachment to the US and its constitution).
    > Almost everybody I know who did get naturalized did not give up their
    > old citizenship. Though, in their oath they had to say the following:
    > "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and
    > abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate,
    > state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject
    > or citizen;"
    > So what's the deal with this? Isn't that a very clear statement to give
    > up any other citizenship? Most importantly, isn't that something that
    > could get me into trouble at some later time? Your opinion on this
    > matter is appreciated.

What you have said is true, and the "renunciatory statement" of the
naturalization oath is as you have stated it. But, keep in mind, from
a legal standpoint that it is the laws of each individual country that
determine whether a person is or is not one of its citizens. Many
countries do not view the US naturalization oath's renunciatory
statement as having any legal effect under their laws. Therefore, just
because a person became a US citizen does not mean that he might not
still hold his original citizenship, in spite of this.

In other words, a person can become a US citizen, take the oath, and
intend to honor all parts of it including the renunciatory statement,
but if the original country says that he is still one of its citizens,
then he is still one of its citizens. The same way that a person's US
citizenship is determined by US law alone, a person's "other"
citizenship is determined by the "other" country's law alone.

For example, a British citizen must go to a British consulate and file
a request to give up his nationality. Making a statement of
renunciation before US officials does not meet this requirement, so
when someone from Britain takes US citizenship, he ends up keeping his
British citizenship also.

That is why many people who naturalize in the US, end up with dual
citizenship in spite of the renunciatory statement.

Keep in mind that there are some countries that WILL automatically take
away citizenship from a person who does take another citizenship. But
there are also many countries that do not. Even the US State
Department acknowledges that some naturalized US citizens may still be
holding their original citizenships and that this may make them subject
to requirements of that original country that the US might not be able
to protect them from if they were to ever travel back to the original
country. There are probably many naturalized US citizens who do not
realize that they still hold their original citizenship.

What you'd need to find out is whether the Netherlands will take away
your citizenship if you became a US citizen. If they do not take it
away, then you would end up having both citizenships. Make sure you
find out from a Dutch Consulate what would happen if you were to
naturalize in the US, and get something in writing if you can.

If it is allowed by the Netherlands, then once becoming a US citizen,
you would have to obey the laws that apply to the citizens of both
countries. You would have to enter the US on a US passport, and
identify yourself to US officials as being a US citizen.

Here's a good website that talks about the US policy on dual
nationality. It's not official, but it's written in easy to understand
language.

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/

Good luck,

Stephen Gallagher
 
Old May 12th 2006, 10:30 am
  #8  
sgallagher
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Default Re: Renounce Allegiance & Dual Citizenship

    > What you'd need to find out is whether the Netherlands

Don't know what got me into thinking you were Dutch when you said you
were Swiss. Sorry about that. I had just been thinking about a freind
of mine who is Dutch.

Anyway, just contact the Swiss Government to verify your nationality
issue.

I believe that they won't take away your citizenship if you naturalize
abroad, but you want to make sure.

Stephen
 
Old May 12th 2006, 10:56 am
  #9  
sgallagher
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Default Re: Renounce Allegiance & Dual Citizenship

helm wrote:
    > I am a citizen of Switzerland. Does that help addressing the question?
    > You said: "It would really only be a problem if you went to your native
    > country's embassy and renounced your citizenship to that country.". My
    > understanding of the oath was that this is EXACTLY what I am supposed
    > to do.

No, that is not what you do. The US oath is made before US officials,
period. The US not require you to go to your original country's
embassy, consulate, or government and/or make any renunciation
according to the laws of your original country.

As a side note, some countries that do not permit dual citizenship WILL
require a person who naturalizes there to go to their original
country's government and renounce (or at least attempt to renounce)
their original citizenship, and then come back with some documentation
stating that they are no longer a citizen of the original country (or
that the original country will not allow them to renounce - some
don't).

    > Your comments did get me an idea of an alternative
    > interpretation, though. It could be claimed that the US is allowing
    > dual citizenship.

Dual citizenship is allowed in the US. Not because of any law which
states this. It's allowed because there is no law that specifically
disallows it. Still, it's a widely misunderstood topic, especially in
the US, because it was discouraged for many years, and only ended up
being more acceptable because of some Supreme Court rulings.
As a general policy, the US does not encourage it, but they neither
discourage it.

At the same time, the Supreme Court's decision did not affect the
ability of Congress to require that the naturalization oath contain a
statement of renunciation. It's just that this statement is
unenforceable given the fact that the US can't control whether the
person's original country continues to view him as being one of its
citizens. In reality, it should probably be removed, but it's too
symbolic at this point, and too many people do not understand how it
really has no effect, that nobody in Congress would want to touch
removing that statement, even if it would change nothing.

    > If on the other hand the other country does not allow
    > dual citizenship then there is a conflict of interest. In that case
    > both the US and the other country would require me to give up one of
    > the citizenships. If this is also your interpretation then I have the
    > following questions:
    > 1) Where is it stated that the US does allow dual citizenship.

Keep in mind that the countries where dual citizenship is allowed,
including the US, generally do not enact laws stating that dual
citizenship is allowed. They simply have no laws that disallow dual
citizenship. In other words, it's legal because there's no law that
makes it illegal.

Here is the US State Department's official page on dual nationality
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_p.../cis_1753.html
 
Old May 12th 2006, 11:08 am
  #10  
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Default Re: Renounce Allegiance & Dual Citizenship

Originally Posted by Helm
I am a citizen of Switzerland. Does that help addressing the question?

You said: "It would really only be a problem if you went to your native
country's embassy and renounced your citizenship to that country.". My
understanding of the oath was that this is EXACTLY what I am supposed
to do. Your comments did get me an idea of an alternative
interpretation, though. It could be claimed that the US is allowing
dual citizenship. If on the other hand the other country does not allow
dual citizenship then there is a conflict of interest. In that case
both the US and the other country would require me to give up one of
the citizenships. If this is also your interpretation then I have the
following questions:

1) Where is it stated that the US does allow dual citizenship.

2) I believe there were cases where naturalized citizens were stripped
of their US citizenship because they did not renounce their
citizenship. If I am mistaken on this are there decisions (of lawsuits)
that show the opposite, i.e. that if both countries allow dual
citizenship one cannot be stripped off the US citizenship because the
person has not denounced his/her previous citizenship?

3) You said "It would really only be a problem if you went to your
native country's embassy and renounced your citizenship to that
country". Isn't it that if my country does not allow dual citizenship I
am supposed to do this and if it does I am free to do so?

I would appreciate if you could help me understand this a bit better.

Thanks
Hi:

Do read Mr. Wales' article -- it is excellent.

In reviewing it it pays to remember that EACH country determines who its "citizens" or "nationals" are.

So, in your case, the United States determines that your naturalization makes you a US citizen.

Swiss law will determine whether or not you are still a Swiss citizen. It depends upon on whether or not the Swiss recognize the renunciation. Again, this is an example of SWISS law, not US law. [Note that Mr. Wales' article does not list the law of each specific country -- and that can sometimes be hard to follow].

It is not that the US "allows" dual citizenship, its just that it usally doesn't care.

If a person actively exercises their rights of foreign citizenship, then the US **MAY** seek to find an expatriation -- the late Mier Kahane was personna non-grata in the US and he fought quite hard to keep his US passport until his assassination.

An interesting case from the Supremes is Kawakita -- who held dual US/Japanese citizenship. As a Japanese, his WWII war crimes would have netted a five year sentence [if he had been tried at all]. However, since his war crimes involved abuse of US POW's -- he was considered levying war against the US. "Treason" is the only crime defined in the Constitution including a requirement of two witnesses. Kawakita used his US citizenship to come to the US after WWII and he had the misfortune of being spotted on the street by one his former victims. The Supremes upheld the death sentence. [Truman commuted to life, JFK pardoned him, and he returned to Japan].
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Old May 12th 2006, 12:13 pm
  #11  
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Default Re: Renounce Allegiance & Dual Citizenship

Originally Posted by Helm
I am considering applying for US citizenship because I would like to be
able to vote, etc. I am willing to fulfill my duties as a US citizen.
Nevertheless, I definitely do not want to give up my current
citizenship and I am still attached to my old country (which, for me,
does not conflict with my attachment to the US and its constitution).
Almost everybody I know who did get naturalized did not give up their
old citizenship. Though, in their oath they had to say the following:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and
abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate,
state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject
or citizen;"

So what's the deal with this? Isn't that a very clear statement to give
up any other citizenship? Most importantly, isn't that something that
could get me into trouble at some later time? Your opinion on this
matter is appreciated.

Thanks
That little part of the oath is exactly why I am not EVER planning on becoming a USC. Yeah, Canada allows me to be both, etc, but eff that. Its the principal of it that I don't like.
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Old May 12th 2006, 12:35 pm
  #12  
Sophie T
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Default Re: Renounce Allegiance & Dual Citizenship

"helm" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] oups.com...
    >I am a citizen of Switzerland. Does that help addressing the question?
    > You said: "It would really only be a problem if you went to your native
    > country's embassy and renounced your citizenship to that country.". My
    > understanding of the oath was that this is EXACTLY what I am supposed
    > to do. Your comments did get me an idea of an alternative
    > interpretation, though. It could be claimed that the US is allowing
    > dual citizenship. If on the other hand the other country does not allow
    > dual citizenship then there is a conflict of interest. In that case
    > both the US and the other country would require me to give up one of
    > the citizenships. If this is also your interpretation then I have the
    > following questions:
    > 1) Where is it stated that the US does allow dual citizenship.
    > 2) I believe there were cases where naturalized citizens were stripped
    > of their US citizenship because they did not renounce their
    > citizenship. If I am mistaken on this are there decisions (of lawsuits)
    > that show the opposite, i.e. that if both countries allow dual
    > citizenship one cannot be stripped off the US citizenship because the
    > person has not denounced his/her previous citizenship?
    > 3) You said "It would really only be a problem if you went to your
    > native country's embassy and renounced your citizenship to that
    > country". Isn't it that if my country does not allow dual citizenship I
    > am supposed to do this and if it does I am free to do so?
    > I would appreciate if you could help me understand this a bit better.
    > Thanks

Hi there,

My husband is Swiss, and he became a US citizen in February of this year.
So, he's now a dual citizen.
If you go to the Swiss Embassy website:
http://www.eda.admin.ch/washington_emb/e/home.html and do a search for
"citizenship", you will find a fact sheet that explains a lot about it. It
specifically states that you do not lose your Swiss citizenship by
naturalizing in another country.

As a side note, I plan to do the simplified naturalization and apply to
become a Swiss citizen (based on marriage to a Swiss) later this year.

Hope that helps,

Sophie
 
Old May 12th 2006, 12:40 pm
  #13  
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Default Re: Renounce Allegiance & Dual Citizenship

Originally Posted by andrea874
That little part of the oath is exactly why I am not EVER planning on becoming a USC. Yeah, Canada allows me to be both, etc, but eff that. Its the principal of it that I don't like.
It's always been my view that everyone who decides they want to live permanently in a particular country should become a citizen of that country. I immigrated from the UK to Australia when I was an infant, as soon as I was old enough to make the decision, I became a naturalised Australian. Now that I've decided that the US is going to be my home, I'll be seeking US citizenship as soon as I'm able. I just think it's the right thing to do...

As for the US oath, I think folks get too hung up on the part about sole allegiance. From my point of view, if you're a citizen of a 'US friendly' country, like the UK, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, etc., pledging allegiance to the US is not at odds with any allegiance one might have with their original country, for the foreseeable future at least...

Just my $0.02

Steve (future US citizen...)
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Old May 12th 2006, 12:41 pm
  #14  
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Default Re: Renounce Allegiance & Dual Citizenship

Originally Posted by hcj1440
The US allows dual citizenship. Whether you have to renounce your other citizenship depends on the other country's laws.

I don't believe the US ~allows~ dual citizenship. The US turns a blind eye to the fact that you hold a passport from another country but it does not make you go to your embassy/country and formally renounce your citizenship from that country.
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Old May 12th 2006, 1:18 pm
  #15  
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Default Re: Renounce Allegiance & Dual Citizenship

Originally Posted by Rete
I don't believe the US ~allows~ dual citizenship. The US turns a blind eye to the fact that you hold a passport from another country but it does not make you go to your embassy/country and formally renounce your citizenship from that country.
Well, there may be circumstances where the US *has* to allow it. For example, what about a child born in, say the UK, to US citizen parents? That child is automatically a US citizen, but is also a UK citizen by virtue of their place of birth. Of course this is a different kettle of fish than the case where a person *chooses* to become a dual citizen.

From the State Dept. web site:

"The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy..."

and

"... a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth."

Steve.
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