retzie

Same for me (in maths). However, what has changed since I went through is that what used to be a one-year Honours add-on to bridge into a research higher degree, became a two-year coursework Masters. However a Masters by research still exists, but is almost exclusively used as a PhD exit point.

I think this varies a bit by field. Common wisdom in mine is that a postdoc (or three) doesn't hurt your chances in industry, but I think it is highly dependent on the postdoc work environment. If it's in a lab, or an industry partnership setting, I think you can definitely acquire skills that are transferable into industry. If, however, you are sequestered away thinking very hard about your obscure part of mathematics/physics/astronomy, for some reason that doesn't tend to make you job-ready... (My current employer has a long history of total failures where we have tried to hire such people.)

Yes, the OPT program still exists, as does the STEM extension: https://www.uscis.gov/opt. And there is still the extra quota of H-1B visas for those possessing US higher degrees (this is not relevant if you are seeking an academic job, since those are cap-exempt, but it is a big deal if you are trying to get/keep a job in industry).

Basically, I think it's worth thoroughly exploring the possibility of a US-based PhD if you have a serious intention to live here long term. There's a good chance you can even defer taking up your UK place, which would keep it as a back-up option if nothing pans out in the US.

As I have said on BE before: I look back on my decision to start my PhD where/when I did and am absolutely gobsmacked at how poorly I had prepared myself to make that decision. I fully endorse taking a good long while to see what else is out there, so you can go into the decision with your eyes open.

AdobePinon

Some good advice above. What you propose is possible, but definitely not easy. If you stay in the UK for now, you should plan on advancing your career there for a while since the odds of a quick transition are not the best.

I think the other obvious options have been outlined. Here are my two cents...
1. Work in the UK, get a transfer (L visa). Obviously very strongly dependent on your future employer's willingness to support it. I've never seen any stats on the success rate from step zero, and there probably aren't any. Future boss may not support a long stay in the USA, even if they let you get there. Then it becomes a different kind of mad dash for immigration status.
2. Get UK PhD, get US postdoc. This can work well, but you need to really be on top of your planning and networking - a year or two as a postdoc is not much time to make the next move. Typical postdoc visa is a J-1 - adds complications. Other possibilities that are less common are F-1 (you really don't want this), H-1B (either capped or uncapped). A capped H-1B can make it difficult to move to the next job, an uncapped one is easy to move to (most) non-profit / government orgs, but not to a for-profit. If you get a H-1B postdoc in the right kind of place, a NIW waiver is occasionally doable.
3. Get US PhD. Visa will be F-1. It will take longer, but allow you to network more effectively, making a US postdoc or job afterwards a little easier to obtain. Postdoc visas would be the same as above. Job visas would almost certainly be a H-1B, capped or uncapped. The F-1 visa grants you a certain amount of time to work in the US after your PhD (the rules and durations change from time to time). This work authorization is very useful to bridge the application date gaps between different visa statuses without getting kicked out of the country - again, planning is key - including your graduation date which is not fixed in stone.

I got here originally on an F-1 as a PhD student. I didn't have a Master's and never bothered picking one up along the way. (Note that in the US, stopping at the Master's level generally allows more flexibility in changing career paths, but you may need to get another degree in that final field in order to keep rising up the ladder. Also, you do see some bizarre things - I have two German friends who never got any degrees before their PhDs. They were exchange students who never went back until after finishing their PhDs. In order to get their qualifications recognized in Germany, they had to resubmit their dissertations to a German committee and defend them there. They were eventually granted a German certificate for 'PhD - U.S.A' in addition to their actual certificates.) Anyway, after finishing the PhD, I taught for a couple of years on a uncapped H-1B (buying time) then took a postdoc elsewhere. I would have stayed on an uncapped H-1B, but I got married first and got the green card. I later converted to staff at the same place. My fellow international postdocs typically had J-1s or uncapped H-1Bs. Staying wasn't an option for most of them (function of the site more than the visas) and most of them went (a) to a second postdoc elsewhere (mostly same visa), (b) directly to a job elsewhere (either H-1B or NIW, or occasionally O-1), (c) directly to academia (uncapped H-1B), (d) home. Some of the last category returned to the US after a few years with a new status.

I'll echo retzie's last statement: I went straight through school from age 4 to PhD. Dumbest thing ever. I was so burnt out that I struggled to finish it - my boss never said anything even though he must have observed it. Time out is a good thing and if you go do a PhD in the US, you may not get another chance to 'relax' for a while.

aesthetic

Hi everyone,

Sorry for the late response. There's been some fantastic information posted, thank you all!

Taking on all this information, I felt that completing a masters in the UK would be a good plan to buy me a little more time and to set me up for a US PhD - my main issue is that the tuition fees eat up the majority of the maximum masters the loan amount (the maximum awarded is around £11K, the fees are £10.8K), so funding this year would be a real problem in terms of living costs.
So instead, I may complete my PhD program as planned and attempt to land a post-doc after graduation, I can then network and try to take things from there.

By all means, keep your comments coming! This has been really insightful!

Great to know unconventional routes can work!

Luckily, I have had some time out of academia! I went to univeristy late and I graduated in 2019, I've been working for the past year because I needed a break from academia and I wanted to go travelling (Thanks COVID )

excpomea

I would echo the comments above, Phd the move to the States as a post doc with a plan to obtain permanent resident status later along the way.
Here in my research lab we must have 50 + post docs, mostly from abroad.
One of the young ladies is here doing a post doc after obtaining her Phd from U Sussex.
https://nationalmaglab.org/

We are in the process of interviewing for 3 post doc position's. But the recent events, covid and Trump have cause difficulties for the candidates from abroad.

aesthetic

Thanks for your post, your group looks really interesting! Let me know if you can hold onto a post doc space for a Bioinformatician from Yorkshire

I'm currently trying to sort out some kind of masters study with additional funding so I can attempt a PhD in the states - if not I'll fall on back onto my original plan of a UK PhD followed by a state side post-doc!

excpomea

Yorkshire? We're all for diversity, but I'm not sure we can go that far lol

Seriously, most candidates seem to come to our attention via networking at conferences. Always a good excuse for a road trip. One day they may even let us fly again.

aesthetic

Can't say i blame you, I wonder how many Americans could even understand my farmers accent
That's a fantastic point, I'll be sure to time my scouting trips so that I can visit some conferences!

tht

You should look at OPT, I believe you can do it following a US masters or PhD.

https://www.uscis.gov/working-united...yment/stem-opt

Makes it pretty easy to hire you...

AdobePinon

A lot of the time, STEM PhDs in the US are fully funded by the department they study in. For example, my chemistry PhD was fully funded with moderate living expenses. I only had to pay to get myself out here in the first place.

steveq

I wish you'd talk to WillQ, he is dead set against doing a Phd in the USA "because of the cost"

carcajou

Yes, true, especially at the doctoral level. "Research assistantships" (where you help a research team) and "teaching assistantships" (where you teach a class, to free a professor up) are often available and these come with full tuition covered, a stipend and health insurance.

It isn't a lot but it does cover tuition and fees, and basic expenses.

retzie

What??? Has he met any US PhD students?! Not only are often fully funded, but they are usually teaching as part of the deal, which MASSIVELY increases their employment opportunities.

WillQ : No decisions allowed until you talk to people in your field, in the positions your want, on this side of the pond!

steveq

I shall tell him....

retzie

The conversations are free. And if everything still points to a UK PhD at the end, at least he will know it really was the right decision, not just the one that looked shiniest at first glance. I think it's important to iron out misconceptions, because at some point, the facts will sink in and may bring regret (at which point it will be too late to change).

If I had been to grad school in the US, I'm pretty sure my various employment searches would have been totally different. Both in academia and industry, I would have had a much broader network to draw upon. And this is after having been a very gregarious Australian PhD student (semester abroad in the US, multiple conferences, etc.).

I can't help but think how ironic it is that so many of us completely fail to research a PhD before signing up

SFNative

The research industrial complex depends upon it! If there wasn't a steady supply of naive, don't-know-their-rights smart young things willing to sacrifice their energy and good ideas to arrogant, sometimes downright abusive PIs for the hazy dream of an "academic career", the entire structure of academic research would come tumbling down.