The oath of allegiance

Old Sep 15th 2005, 2:35 pm
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Question The oath of allegiance

From the USCIS website:

The oath of allegiance...

... In some cases, INS allows the oath to be taken without the clauses:

". . .that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by law. . ."
Has anybody every had any problems omitting that part, and in what cases can the oath be taken without those clauses?

The most obvious reason that comes to mind is that it might go against ones religion, but what about it goes against ones beliefs or one just doesn't want to say that? Would that be enough reason?

Thanks!
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Old Sep 15th 2005, 3:24 pm
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Default Re: The oath of allegiance

Originally Posted by estes1
From the USCIS website:



Has anybody every had any problems omitting that part, and in what cases can the oath be taken without those clauses?

The most obvious reason that comes to mind is that it might go against ones religion, but what about it goes against ones beliefs or one just doesn't want to say that? Would that be enough reason?

Thanks!

You would not even provide noncombatant service? Then perhaps you need to seriously rethink your decision to naturalize. Of course, I am fully aware that some people will naturalize only for monetary or personal gain reasons and will not and do not give back on a personal sacrificial level to the country (doesn't matter which country it is), but it seems a disservice to the country you are naturalizing to and its citizens.

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Old Sep 15th 2005, 3:31 pm
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Default Re: The oath of allegiance

Originally Posted by estes1
From the USCIS website:



Has anybody every had any problems omitting that part, and in what cases can the oath be taken without those clauses?

The most obvious reason that comes to mind is that it might go against ones religion, but what about it goes against ones beliefs or one just doesn't want to say that? Would that be enough reason?

Thanks!
You can opt out of Selective Service registration if you are a conscientious objector (the technical term for pacifist/hippy), so I'm guessing this version of the oath is for people with similar reasons.

Last edited by NJ_Dave; Sep 15th 2005 at 3:37 pm.
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Old Sep 15th 2005, 3:39 pm
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Default Re: The oath of allegiance

I'm not interested in a debate.

All I want is an answer to my question:

Has anybody every had any problems omitting that part, and in what cases can the oath be taken without those clauses?
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Old Sep 15th 2005, 3:40 pm
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Default Re: The oath of allegiance

Originally Posted by NJ_Dave
You can opt out of Selective Service registration if you are a conscientious objector (the technical term for pacifist/hippy), so I'm guessing this version of the oath is for people with similar reasons.
Thanks for the info!
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Old Sep 15th 2005, 4:06 pm
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Default Re: The oath of allegiance

Originally Posted by estes1
I'm not interested in a debate.

All I want is an answer to my question:

Has anybody every had any problems omitting that part, and in what cases can the oath be taken without those clauses?

Not going to debate either. Perhaps you can do as others have done and just say the oath without meaning it. If you are past the age of 26 the chances of your ever being called to serve are slim to none.

You might want to ask when you go for the N400 test and interview. They are really helpful and will tell you if there is an alterate oath you might take or how to omit the phrase you are not in agreement with.
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Old Sep 15th 2005, 4:12 pm
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Default Re: The oath of allegiance

Originally Posted by NJ_Dave
You can opt out of Selective Service registration if you are a conscientious objector (the technical term for pacifist/hippy), so I'm guessing this version of the oath is for people with similar reasons.


Conscientious objectors have, in the past, been required to do non-military related service.
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Old Sep 15th 2005, 4:16 pm
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Default Re: The oath of allegiance

Originally Posted by PHILLY2004
Conscientious objectors have, in the past, been required to do non-military related service.
Yep, like changing bedpans in old folks homes or picking up litter from the side of highways (basically the same sort of stuff that criminals do for community service when ordered to by a judge).
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Old Sep 15th 2005, 4:38 pm
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Default Re: The oath of allegiance

Originally Posted by Rete
You might want to ask when you go for the N400 test and interview. They are really helpful and will tell you if there is an alterate oath you might take or how to omit the phrase you are not in agreement with.
Thank you!
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Old Sep 15th 2005, 5:36 pm
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Default Re: The oath of allegiance

estes1 <member38923@british_expats.com> wrote in
news:[email protected] m:

    > From the USCIS website:
    >
    >
    >
    > Has anybody every had any problems omitting that part, and in what
    > cases can the oath be taken without those clauses?

I can't see what you're referring to but assume it's the bear arms,
etc, clauses.

As far as I am concerned, you should just go ahead and say them even
if you disagree.

If you're not actually drafted into some manner of service, that part
of the oath doesn't make a bit of difference to your life, except
that you've promised to do something distasteful and made a promise
you didn't actually mean. Big whup.

If you are actually drafted into some manner of service, which would
realistically only happen if there were some really disastrous WW2-
scale war, I assure you that the government will not say "Oh, you're
naturalized and didn't say that part of the oath? Okay then, we'll
move along." In circumstances that dire, your ass will be just as
drafted as anyone else's.

It just doesn't mean anything. It's as if you had to promise to do
something in the event of alien invasion, or if the Norse gods come
to earth to make trouble. It just ain't gonna happen, and if it
somehow did, you'd be just as ****ed as anyone else.

Not saying that part of the oath is just pointless grandstanding, as
far as I care anyway. It's just going to cause trouble for whichever
USCIS drone is dealing with your case, and maybe delay things for
you.

Rete's response is fine as far as it goes, but I think you're better
off seeing the oath as just another dumb bureaucratic hurdle, from
the smae planet as repeatedly promising that you weren't a Nazi
between 1933 and 1945, instead of a grand moral statement.

--
Jim Battista
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.
 
Old Sep 15th 2005, 8:19 pm
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Default Re: The oath of allegiance

Thank you for your input, Jim. And thanks to everyone else, I appreciate everyone's responses!
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Old Sep 15th 2005, 10:10 pm
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Default Re: The oath of allegiance

Originally Posted by estes1
Thank you for your input, Jim. And thanks to everyone else, I appreciate everyone's responses!

BTW you are a woman and the US doesn't draft women...at least not yet.
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Old Sep 15th 2005, 10:19 pm
  #13  
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Default Re: The oath of allegiance

This topic was also discussed about three months ago; you might
want to look in the Google or britishexpats archives from June
for a thread on the subject "Taking The Oath".

I posted some comments comparing the naturalization oath options
to similar options in the Selective Service Act (the draft) that
deal with "conscientious objection" to participation in war; see
the following link for a copy of my posting if you have trouble
finding the entire thread:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.v...1866cc4584edf0

Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.
 
Old Sep 15th 2005, 10:21 pm
  #14  
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Default Re: The oath of allegiance

Originally Posted by Jim Battista
estes1 <member38923@british_expats.com> wrote in
news:[email protected] m:

    > From the USCIS website:
    >
    >
    >
    > Has anybody every had any problems omitting that part, and in what
    > cases can the oath be taken without those clauses?

I can't see what you're referring to but assume it's the bear arms,
etc, clauses.

As far as I am concerned, you should just go ahead and say them even
if you disagree.

If you're not actually drafted into some manner of service, that part
of the oath doesn't make a bit of difference to your life, except
that you've promised to do something distasteful and made a promise
you didn't actually mean. Big whup.

If you are actually drafted into some manner of service, which would
realistically only happen if there were some really disastrous WW2-
scale war, I assure you that the government will not say "Oh, you're
naturalized and didn't say that part of the oath? Okay then, we'll
move along." In circumstances that dire, your ass will be just as
drafted as anyone else's.

It just doesn't mean anything. It's as if you had to promise to do
something in the event of alien invasion, or if the Norse gods come
to earth to make trouble. It just ain't gonna happen, and if it
somehow did, you'd be just as ****ed as anyone else.

Not saying that part of the oath is just pointless grandstanding, as
far as I care anyway. It's just going to cause trouble for whichever
USCIS drone is dealing with your case, and maybe delay things for
you.

Rete's response is fine as far as it goes, but I think you're better
off seeing the oath as just another dumb bureaucratic hurdle, from
the smae planet as repeatedly promising that you weren't a Nazi
between 1933 and 1945, instead of a grand moral statement.

--
Jim Battista
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.

I was just going to give some Karma, and then saw a usenet post.

But nicely put.

PS As a dual citizen you do have the bail out option not available to most.
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Old Sep 15th 2005, 10:47 pm
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Default Re: The oath of allegiance

Originally Posted by estes1
From the USCIS website:



Has anybody every had any problems omitting that part, and in what cases can the oath be taken without those clauses?

The most obvious reason that comes to mind is that it might go against ones religion, but what about it goes against ones beliefs or one just doesn't want to say that? Would that be enough reason?

Thanks!
Hi:

Do remember that the N-400 gives a descending list.

http://uscis.gov/lpBin/lpext.dll/ins...htm#slb-act337

http://uscis.gov/lpBin/lpext.dll/ins...lb-8cfrsec3371

http://uscis.gov/lpBin/lpext.dll/ins...htm#slb-act315

http://uscis.gov/lpBin/lpext.dll/ins...htm#slb-act315
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