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Multiple CIMT - getting engaged to USC

Multiple CIMT - getting engaged to USC

Old Jul 4th 2011, 3:01 am
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Default Re: Multiple CIMT - getting engaged to USC

Meanwhile, returning to the subject at hand, I've been continuing my research by following meauxna's links.

Originally Posted by meauxna
It's been a while since I've read up on waivers and hardship letters, but I think showing that the USC needs to remain in the US is the right sort of hardship, Rene. They don't have to show that it is a hardship not having their spouse/fiance in the US.

Looks like this article is still good: http://www.familybasedimmigration.com/forum/waivers.php
Thanks meauxna. That link lead to a further one which I think a lot of people here would find useful as it details all the grounds for inadmissibility and the available waivers: http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86933.pdf

Until me and the gf make our minds up what we're gonna do, that's probably as far as I can take things at the moment. I'm glad to have found an answer to my most immediate concern which was the details of an immigrant visa criminal waiver. So thank you once again to you all, especially meauxna and discoviking for their detailed and informative comments.
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Old Jul 4th 2011, 2:07 pm
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Default Re: Multiple CIMT - getting engaged to USC

Originally Posted by materialcontroller
Ah well, we have a pedant in here. I see your handle of "sanctimonious prick" is well placed. OK smart guy. The K1 is technically a non-immigrant visa as the adjustment of status needs to be done once in the USA.
Sometimes it is a good thing to be pedantic in discussing immigration. In my past incarnation on these forums I would often note this.

Our sanctimonious prick is quite right. However, to get a tad more pedantic, the K-1 visa was often described as a "hybrid" long before Toyota came out with the Prius. The regulations and FAM expressly state that the K-1 non-immigrant application is processed "as if" it is an immigrant application.
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Old Jul 4th 2011, 2:51 pm
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Default Re: Multiple CIMT - getting engaged to USC

Thank you very much S Folinsky. The definition offered by Ian previously, while certainly correct in a narrow sense, did not mention or take into account the full and wider context of the K1 visa. The reply you have just given overcomes those deficiencies and is a good deal more constructive and illuminating - explaining the situation both clearly and concisely. Thanks again!
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Old Jul 4th 2011, 3:19 pm
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Default Re: Multiple CIMT - getting engaged to USC

Hi , i would start getting court records together , this can be a pain as i found out ! let me know if i can advise .
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Old Jul 4th 2011, 4:45 pm
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Default Re: Multiple CIMT - getting engaged to USC

Originally Posted by andy1
Hi , i would start getting court records together , this can be a pain as i found out ! let me know if i can advise .
Hi Andy. Thanks for the advance warning. According to the link I posted previously http://immigrate2us.net/forum/showth...treme-Hardship this seems to be a guide to what is required:

What kind of evidence can I provide to prove rehabilitation for a criminal waiver?

time since last conviction, generally more serious convictions and/or repeat offenses require more time since last conviction

statements of the criminal court regarding chances of alien repeating the crime (sometimes the court actually comes out and says the defendant is unlikely to reoffend)

expungements and pardons (don't get you out of ground of inadmissibility, but they're great proof of rehabilitation, 9 FAM 40.21(b) N4:1-3(b)(4) actually refers to them as "rehabilitative" statutes)

letter from parole officer, policeman, judge or other law enforcement official stating that from their experience they 'know' when someone is likely to reoffend and this guy won't reoffend

letter from psychologist stating that crime was result of psychological problem and now the person is better (this is especially useful for history of shoplifting without economic motivation)

evidence of changed life conditions, e.g. alien committed offenses when he/she was young, foolish, unemployed, childless, and/or single, but now person is older, wiser, married, employed and/or has kids

letter from clergy stating this person has changed

evidence that alien is in position of trust with money (if financial crime) or trust with children (if violent or alcohol-related crime) and that the people who placed him in this position of trust KNOW the alien's criminal history

evidence of successful completion of alcohol or drug treatment program if alcohol or drugs were a factor in the crime (BEWARE OF ADDICTION GROUNDS OF INADMISSIBILITY - ALIEN MUST BE CLEAN AND SOBER FOR THREE YEARS)

for recent first-and-only offenses of a less serious nature, if the punishment was light, bring that up
Regarding court documents, I already have in my possession the full court report from my last appearance in 2006 (a case of criminal damage which was dropped and never prosecuted). This has details of that charge, and also has a full history of my previous convictions including which articles of law were broken, and the sentencing details as well. This document has previously been submitted and accepted by the London embassy in regard to my two B2 visa applications. According to the following guidance to consular officials regarding INA 212(h) waiver applications, http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86943.pdf my court report would seem to fulfill the listed criteria:

The post must also
include with the request, certified copies of:
(1) The charges forming the basis of the conviction;
(2) The provisions of law in full on which such charges were predicated;
(3) The judgment of the court;
(4) In cases of expungements, a copy of or the citation to the
procedural law setting forth the effect of the expungement; and
(5) Whenever applicable, the consular officer’s determination as to the
value of the goods involved in the crime if such information is not
part of the record of conviction.
However, in light of your own experience and the length of time which has passed since my last court appearance, do you recommend that I look for further or more recent documentation for a K1 visa waiver application under INA 212 (h)? What do you suggest?

Last edited by materialcontroller; Jul 4th 2011 at 4:52 pm.
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Old Jul 4th 2011, 5:24 pm
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Default Re: Multiple CIMT - getting engaged to USC

Waivers are one of the areas where I am of the opinion that an applicant might be very well be stupid to proceed without competent counsel. A waiver is a discretionary application -- an important factor. A good attorney will have the necessary professional detachment. Also, an attorney can argue a tad more vigorously than the applicant herself. An attorney is expected to be a "zealous advocate" while the applicant herself should be, in the word of an attorney I respect highly, "groveling."
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Old Jul 4th 2011, 5:36 pm
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Default Re: Multiple CIMT - getting engaged to USC

Thanks for the repeated mantra regarding lawyers. If I ever run out of options or feel overwhelmed, then I may consider getting one. As it is right now, I don't think it's essential. And far from it being stupid to proceed without a lawyer as you claim, in my opinion that's not nearly as stupid as spending money unnecessarily. But your comment is duly noted, and thank you again, S Folinsky.

Last edited by materialcontroller; Jul 4th 2011 at 5:43 pm.
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Old Jul 4th 2011, 7:09 pm
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Default Re: Multiple CIMT - getting engaged to USC

So after a little bit more digging around, I've found out what andy1 was getting at. The "memorandum of conviction" which is required for an immigrant visa interview according to the London embassy website:
http://london.usembassy.gov/applicat...ts.htmlhttp://

This document can apparently be obtained by contacting the court(s) concerned and paying a fee. This link came from an old thread on here (thanks to fatbrit) and has details of how to contact all courts in England & Wales:
http://hmctscourtfinder.justice.gov.uk/HMCTS/
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Old Jul 5th 2011, 6:30 pm
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Default Re: Multiple CIMT - getting engaged to USC

Originally Posted by materialcontroller
Once I have a bit more time, I'm gonna create a thread in the main forum based around my entire B2 experience. But I will mention here that I needed to complete the DS-160 online application form, apply for an ACPO police certificate, provide copies of court documents detailing conviction details (because the police certificate returned "No Live Trace") and also complete a VCU-1 form. The police certificate, VCU-1 form and court documents had to be scanned and emailed to the non-immigrant visa section of the London embassy before I was able to schedule an interview appointment.

I am aware that the K1 immigrant visa is far more complex. Hence why I am beginning my search for information and answers to questions now, well in advance of actually commencing the process for real.
Hi materialcontroller. I've enjoyed reading your posts. I'm in a similar situation as you apart from the fact i'm already married to a US citizen. She came to live here in the UK for 3 years but found the life style change and missing her family all to much and moved back to the US 3 weeks ago. I too have multiple convictions ( 4 cimt's between 14 and 17 years ago. 3 non cimt's and 2 that could go either way). I am curious as to how you talked your way into getting the B-2 waiver for 12 months. Also when you apply to the court for records did you have to pay for a copy of each offence or just a one off payment for everything? I'll be following your prgress. Fingers crossed for you
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Old Jul 5th 2011, 9:35 pm
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Default Re: Multiple CIMT - getting engaged to USC

Originally Posted by pitymetorockypoint
Hi materialcontroller. I've enjoyed reading your posts. I'm in a similar situation as you apart from the fact i'm already married to a US citizen. She came to live here in the UK for 3 years but found the life style change and missing her family all to much and moved back to the US 3 weeks ago. I too have multiple convictions ( 4 cimt's between 14 and 17 years ago. 3 non cimt's and 2 that could go either way). I am curious as to how you talked your way into getting the B-2 waiver for 12 months. Also when you apply to the court for records did you have to pay for a copy of each offence or just a one off payment for everything? I'll be following your prgress. Fingers crossed for you
Hi pitymetorockypoint. Thanks for the kind words. I don't intend to dilute this thread with stuff about the B2 application but I've now filed another thread which I believe will answer some, if not all, of your questions:
http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=723744. Please let me know if I can try to help you further.

It's a shame to hear that your wife needed to return to the USA. I hope you will be reunited asap. Good luck to you both!
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Old Jul 5th 2011, 10:53 pm
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Default Re: Multiple CIMT - getting engaged to USC

Originally Posted by pitymetorockypoint
Hi materialcontroller. I've enjoyed reading your posts. I'm in a similar situation as you apart from the fact i'm already married to a US citizen. She came to live here in the UK for 3 years but found the life style change and missing her family all to much and moved back to the US 3 weeks ago. I too have multiple convictions ( 4 cimt's between 14 and 17 years ago. 3 non cimt's and 2 that could go either way). I am curious as to how you talked your way into getting the B-2 waiver for 12 months. Also when you apply to the court for records did you have to pay for a copy of each offence or just a one off payment for everything? I'll be following your prgress. Fingers crossed for you
whilst I too needed to find more out on a juvenile conviction, I was able to trace each entry via the local library, you have to make an appointment and they have to cover info you should not be allowed to see, they will photocopy this info for you also and or you can apply to the local courts with the information and ask for a memorandum of conviction(s) the cost to me was £60 and I did all the leg work over 3 weeks to find that it may never be brought up, but am ready in case it is. It has been disclosed during medical and on my ds-230 and attorney, he has advised me to let him know when we have an interview date and he will prepare a waiver just in case it is required, this will save time if i am allowed to submit after the interview and visa is refused.
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Old Jul 6th 2011, 3:30 pm
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Default Re: Multiple CIMT - getting engaged to USC

A philosophical comment --

Quite often, the sign that an immigration lawyer has done their job well is when the client says at the end of the case -- "that was easy, what did I need you for?" Nature of the beast.

A colleague describes his function as being an "insurance policy."

That said, a waiver application is fundamentally different than most applications in the family immigration arena. With most applications, it is a matter of figuratively crossing the "t"'s and dotting the "i"'s. You do that, application should be approved.

The waiver application has a strong "discretionary" component to it. In OP's case, he is a convicted thief who has the audacity to seek to live in the US permanently. [As OP notes, the non-immigrant waiver is limited]. I'm sure that OP thinks he is a wonderful guy and he is probably right to think that. However, neither he nor I get to make the decision on that score.

When it comes to waivers, the subjective POV counts for a lot.

Of course, the choice of whether or not to have an attorney is always up to the applicant. OP knows the mechanics which is fine and good. However, he will not have the detached POV.

I wish him luck.
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Old Jul 6th 2011, 3:37 pm
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Default Re: Multiple CIMT - getting engaged to USC

Originally Posted by materialcontroller
Hi Andy. Thanks for the advance warning. According to the link I posted previously http://immigrate2us.net/forum/showth...treme-Hardship this seems to be a guide to what is required:



Regarding court documents, I already have in my possession the full court report from my last appearance in 2006 (a case of criminal damage which was dropped and never prosecuted). This has details of that charge, and also has a full history of my previous convictions including which articles of law were broken, and the sentencing details as well. This document has previously been submitted and accepted by the London embassy in regard to my two B2 visa applications. According to the following guidance to consular officials regarding INA 212(h) waiver applications, http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/86943.pdf my court report would seem to fulfill the listed criteria:



However, in light of your own experience and the length of time which has passed since my last court appearance, do you recommend that I look for further or more recent documentation for a K1 visa waiver application under INA 212 (h)? What do you suggest?
Well , i had 6 convictions and had to obtain court record copies for them all , but , due to the length of time for a couple of them ,no records were available, so i just obtained a court receipt stating that fact . Also i had to visit in person,to four of them as they would only produce in person and it was quicker for me to do so !..Andy .
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Old Jul 6th 2011, 6:25 pm
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Default Re: Multiple CIMT - getting engaged to USC

Thanks for your post S Folinsky. I'm grateful for that as it contains very sound advice and a whole load of truth. And your wishes of luck are most kind. However, I do wish to raise a couple of points.

The waiver application has a strong "discretionary" component to it.
Yes it does. And that is why an attorney-prepared submission could be denied just as easily as a freelance-DIY one. I do take heed of your warning about being too close to the issue, and the need to try and retain a detached and subjective POV. However, I can assure you I've never been a fan of insurance policies. And if I engaged a lawyer but still failed to secure the waiver, I wouldn't be looking at it as though I gave it my best shot by throwing everything I had at it. I'd be feeling like I'd just wasted that lawyers' fee. I can handle my own failures, but not other peoples. ESPECIALLY when I've paid for the privilege.

Of course, the choice of whether or not to have an attorney is always up to the applicant.
I agree. And a lot of other people may feel very comfortable with an attorney's help. As might I at some point too, if the process ever becomes unmanageable. In those circumstances, the assistance would be worth the expense. Please believe that I am retaining an open mind at this time.

In OP's case, he is a convicted thief who has the audacity to seek to live in the US permanently. [As OP notes, the non-immigrant waiver is limited].
While I accept the fact that I am a convicted felon, I must just point out that there is no audacity on my part at all. I am merely researching the options at this moment in time and take exception to your somewhat premature characterisation. Had I been asking for something extraordinary, attempting to "push my luck" in other words, then I may have agreed with the accusation of audacity. But I'm not. I am certainly not imposing myself on American society in an unwanted fashion. I am merely following a clearly defined process which the USA itself has enabled.

More to the point, my OP actually said that the preferred option for both myself and the gf is to live in the UK. That is our ultimate long term goal. My main desire is to be with the woman I love. Her motivation (other than being with me) is to further her career in a different setting. While it is a very attractive option for lots of reasons, the USA is definitely not a priority for us, as long as we can provide adequately for her mom back in TX.

I'm sure that OP thinks he is a wonderful guy and he is probably right to think that. However, neither he nor I get to make the decision on that score.
With respect, I wouldn't be that presumptious nor arrogant. As you say, this is not about what you, me or anybody else might think. This whole business is solely at the discretion of the government of the United States. I am humbly aware of that, and I think I have a strong regard and deep respect for their procedures. Therefore I am approaching all of my dealings with US officialdom with the utmost seriousness while also displaying a profound sense of gratitude.

Last edited by materialcontroller; Jul 6th 2011 at 7:13 pm.
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Old Jul 6th 2011, 6:34 pm
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Default Re: Multiple CIMT - getting engaged to USC

Originally Posted by andy1
Well , i had 6 convictions and had to obtain court record copies for them all , but , due to the length of time for a couple of them ,no records were available, so i just obtained a court receipt stating that fact . Also i had to visit in person,to four of them as they would only produce in person and it was quicker for me to do so !..Andy .
Thanks for the helpful info andy1. That is very useful to know.

One thing I would like to ask, if you don't mind, and without going into too much detail. You mention having to visit in person for 4 out of the 6 conviction records. Does that mean you had to obtain four different memoranda of conviction from one court, or one memorandum of conviction from each of four different courts?

Sorry. I know that probably seems like a totally dumb question!
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