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Laid of on H1-B and not paid in a while

Laid of on H1-B and not paid in a while

Old Apr 28th 2001, 10:07 pm
  #16  
Carlos Antunes
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dan,

You keep saying that it's unethical to fire American workers. I am very sorry, but so
far you haven't provided any valid reason to support your assertion. For example if
Cisco or Intel fires French workers, is that unethical too?

Regards, Carlos Antunes.

Dan wrote:
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--
"I swear by my life and by my love of it - that I will never live for the sake of
another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
-- John Galt, hero of Atlas Shrugged
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...76/andresworld
 
Old Apr 28th 2001, 10:26 pm
  #17  
Dan
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Posts: n/a
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Cisco is an American firm who made their success off their American workers. Now
since they are established, they fire these American workers and replace them with
foreign labor.

On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 22:07:54 GMT, Carlos Antunes <[email protected]> wrote:

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[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> Sure they can do what they want. They have every right to do this. It's a[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> capitalistic society. My point was that it is unethical to fire American workers[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> and replace them with lower quality foreignors and still charge the same prices to[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> unsuspecting consumers.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
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Old Apr 28th 2001, 10:39 pm
  #18  
Carlos Antunes
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dan wrote:
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Now Cisco wants to continue to be successful using Indian and Chinese workers. So
what? Cisco owes nothing to those American workers you are talking about.

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Makes all the sense for a company to reduce their costs and increase their profits.
Where's the problem?

Regards, Carlos Antunes.

--
"I swear by my life and by my love of it - that I will never live for the sake of
another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
-- John Galt, hero of Atlas Shrugged
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...76/andresworld
 
Old Apr 29th 2001, 1:02 am
  #19  
Tim Keating
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> Cisco is an American firm who made their success off their American workers.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
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Then you won't mind as we the U.S. citizens we remove the "Cisco" THREAT, from the
shores of the USA.

When a company turn's cannibalistic against those who created it, then it needs to be
eliminated. Or, at the very least reduced to a mere shell of a company.

A tremendous amount of Cisco sales are based on good will, and NOT price performance.
That "good will" problem can be rectified.

[usenetquote2]>> Now since they are established, they fire these American workers and replace them[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> with foreign labor.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
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Except, when they have manipulated our government, who first duty is to protect the
US citizens, into adopting self destructive policies!

Poor corporate behavior will no longer be tolerated! All companies abusing the H1-B
program will be punished, far beyond any perceived benefits they receive!

Protect the future of American Technology industry, BOYCOTT the products made by big
users/abusers of the H1-B program.

A partial list of top corporate abusers of H1-B program, whom need punishment are
"Intel", " Cisco", "Microsoft", "HP", and "Federal express."

Tim Keating [email protected] (Note: remove numeric digits from email address
before responding.)
 
Old Apr 29th 2001, 1:08 am
  #20  
Dan
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Posts: n/a
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Carlos Antunes and John Jacobson: separated at birth.

On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 22:39:51 GMT, Carlos Antunes <[email protected]> wrote:

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[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> Cisco is an American firm who made their success off their American workers.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
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[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> Now since they are established, they fire these American workers and replace them[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> with foreign labor.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
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Old Apr 29th 2001, 1:10 am
  #21  
John Jacobson
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Not much of a retort. When a firm, like Cisco, is successful and grows, it branches
out into different markets, both physically and economically. That requires hiring
new employees. If the growth is into foreign markets that requires the hiring of
foreign workers. So far, nothing unethical.

Nevertheless, at the same time that a firm might be expanding into new markets, some
of its other markets may be dying, or may be less than what the firm was expecting.
That requires letting employees go. If the dying market is domestic, that requires
laying off domestic workers. Again, nothing unethical so far.

What this means is that a firm could be laying off Americans at the same time it is
hiring foreign workers overseas, and yet nothing unethical has happened. Much noise
has been made in a.c.c about the fact that Cisco is laying off American workers at
the same time it is setting up to hire workers in India, claiming this is unethical.
That's nonsense. India's market is still nascent with a LOT of room to grow before it
becomes even a small fraction of the American market, and it has a high growth rate
(as is always the case when a new market is being established). On the other hand,
the market here in America was overextended by the dot-com boom that busted and so is
in a much different situation. It is a more mature market that now find itself with
large excess inventories and price pressures from sales of second-hand Cisco
products, requiring layoffs. Two entirely different types of markets require two
entirely different responses, and your one-size-fits-all (but only if they are
American) approach commits the fallacy of composition. You've confused the whole with
its parts, a logic error that every Logic 101 student knows enough to avoid..

It seems that your ethics are rather jingoistic. Anything that helps American workers
is good and anything that helps foreign workers is bad even if such a judgement call
requires ignoring economic reality and logic. An "American firm" hires some foreign
workers to work in a foreign plant and they are evil because they are "exporting
jobs" and "stealing our jobs" (and other similar lies).

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[usenetquote2]> >Dan,[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >You keep saying that it's unethical to fire American workers. I am very sorry, but[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >so far you haven't provided any valid reason to support your assertion. For[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >example if Cisco or Intel fires French workers, is that unethical too?[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >Regards, Carlos Antunes.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >Dan wrote:[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> Sure they can do what they want. They have every right to do this. It's a[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> capitalistic society. My point was that it is unethical to fire American workers[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> and replace them with lower quality foreignors and still charge the same prices[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> to unsuspecting consumers.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >--[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >"I swear by my life and by my love of it - that I will never live for the sake of[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > -- John Galt, hero of Atlas Shrugged[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...76/andresworld[/usenetquote2]
 
Old Apr 29th 2001, 1:11 am
  #22  
Tim Keating
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

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India is still missing several critical infrastructure components necessary to be
successful in the tech markets.

Tim Keating [email protected] (Note: remove numeric digits from email address
before responding.)
 
Old Apr 29th 2001, 1:15 am
  #23  
John Jacobson
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

If there were a migration to India from US in IT, wouldn't IT employment in the US be
falling right now? It isn't.

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[usenetquote2]> >What about firing Americans who are nimrods, dipshikts and morons and replacing[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >them with smarter people? What about that? Some Americans are morons, just like in[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >every other group of humans. If someone fired your[/usenetquote2]
ass
[usenetquote2]> >and replaced you wth an H-1B that would only be a tragedy if the H-1B[/usenetquote2]
were a
[usenetquote2]> >bigger idiot than you. Since that is impossible, shut yer yap.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]

[usenetquote2]> >> It is unethical to fire Americans and replace them with lower quality foreign[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> workers thus delivering a lower quality product to their mostly AMERICAN[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> customers.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> We have a population of less than 300 million in the US. India has a population[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> of 1 billion. Why doesn't every American company fire each and every American[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> worker and either send those jobs to India or import them as replacements? They[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> can claim they are lowering costs-- is this ethical?[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 19:37:58 GMT, Carlos Antunes <[email protected]> wrote:[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> >Dan wrote:[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> >> And unethical companies such as Intel, Cisco, Oracle, HP give them free[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> >> training in India so they can come to the US to[/usenetquote2]
replace
[usenetquote2]> >> >> their more expensive counterparts.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> >And since when is it unethical to lower costs?[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> >Regards, Carlos Antunes.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> >--[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> >"I swear by my life and by my love of it - that I will never live for the sake[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> > of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> > -- John Galt, hero of Atlas Shrugged[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...76/andresworld[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
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Old Apr 29th 2001, 1:15 am
  #24  
John Jacobson
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

If you had been my boss I would have left a long time ago.

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[usenetquote2]> >What about firing Americans who are nimrods, dipshikts and morons and replacing[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >them with smarter people? What about that? Some Americans are morons, just like in[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >every other group of humans...[/usenetquote2]
 
Old Apr 29th 2001, 1:41 am
  #25  
John Jacobson
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

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American workers did not create Cisco, a few individuals and some financial
capital created it. Cisco already existed by the time most of the workers were
actually hired. Furthermore, a good deal of that financial capital used to create
and/or expand Cisco came from overseas.

What amuses me the most though is that you keep saying how we need to boycott
Cisco, yet you aren't doing it.
 
Old Apr 29th 2001, 1:43 am
  #26  
John Jacobson
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Yeah, you say that about anybody who disagrees with you. Not a very intelligent
response, but then that keeps the surprises away.

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[usenetquote2]> >Dan wrote:[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> Cisco is an American firm who made their success off their American workers.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >Now Cisco wants to continue to be successful using Indian and Chinese workers. So[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >what? Cisco owes nothing to those American workers you are talking about.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> Now since they are established, they fire these American workers and replace[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >> them with foreign labor.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >Makes all the sense for a company to reduce their costs and increase their[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >profits. Where's the problem?[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >Regards, Carlos Antunes.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >--[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >"I swear by my life and by my love of it - that I will never live for the sake of[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > -- John Galt, hero of Atlas Shrugged[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...76/andresworld[/usenetquote2]
 
Old Apr 29th 2001, 1:58 am
  #27  
Carlos Antunes
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Tim Keating wrote:
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What threat? Besides, what makes you think you have the right to do what you propose?
It's not your property, you should not touch it!

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What the heck are you talking about?

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What the heck are you talking about? Cisco sells because people want to buy. That is
all there is to it.

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Self-destructive practices? Again, what the heck are you talking about?

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Let me guess, and you are going to be the man being the vendetta, right?

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Good luck with the boycott. If you were smarter, you'd buy their stock instead
of whining.

Regards, Carlos Antunes.

--
"I swear by my life and by my love of it - that I will never live for the sake of
another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
-- John Galt, hero of Atlas Shrugged
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...76/andresworld
 
Old Apr 29th 2001, 1:58 am
  #28  
dbbowden
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

John, This type of logic is abtruse and ignores factual evidence that American
corporations are investing millions of dollars in setting up off shore shops for
programming development and maintance.

Go find the facts yourself.

On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 20:15:03 -0500, "John Jacobson" <[email protected]> wrote:

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[usenetquote2]>> The whole H1-B displacement of American IT workers is kinda a moot point. There is[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> currently a migration of programming jobs, Development and Maintance from the US[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> to India, There is nothing that will stop this. IBM, FORD and other large[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> companies have announced increases in Indian positions.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> There is a large H1-B , American trained, Indian workforce, willing to accept[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> lower wages, experenced, ready to assume positions.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> American companies are setting up IT shops in India,They are forming alliances[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> with Indian universities.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> In the near future any maintance/ developmental programming for large[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> corporations, that can be, probably will be done off shore.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> If I were a programmer I would be considering a move to management and an[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> investment in learning a foreign language.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 15:30:19 -0500, "John Jacobson" <[email protected]> wrote:[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >What about firing Americans who are nimrods, dipshikts and morons and replacing[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >them with smarter people? What about that? Some Americans are morons, just like[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >in every other group of humans. If someone fired your[/usenetquote2]
    >
[usenetquote2]>> >and replaced you wth an H-1B that would only be a tragedy if the H-1B[/usenetquote2]
    >
[usenetquote2]>> >bigger idiot than you. Since that is impossible, shut yer yap.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >[/usenetquote2]

[usenetquote2]>> >> It is unethical to fire Americans and replace them with lower quality foreign[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> workers thus delivering a lower quality product to their mostly AMERICAN[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> customers.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> We have a population of less than 300 million in the US. India has a population[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> of 1 billion. Why doesn't every American company fire each and every American[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> worker and either send those jobs to India or import them as replacements? They[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> can claim they are lowering costs-- is this ethical?[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 19:37:58 GMT, Carlos Antunes <[email protected]> wrote:[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> >Dan wrote:[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> >> And unethical companies such as Intel, Cisco, Oracle, HP give them free[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> >> training in India so they can come to the US to[/usenetquote2]
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[usenetquote2]>> >> >> their more expensive counterparts.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> >And since when is it unethical to lower costs?[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> >Regards, Carlos Antunes.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> >--[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> >"I swear by my life and by my love of it - that I will never live for the sake[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> > of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> > -- John Galt, hero of Atlas Shrugged[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...76/andresworld[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
 
Old Apr 29th 2001, 2:01 am
  #29  
dbbowden
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Being worked on as we speak.

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On Sun, 29 Apr 2001 01:11:45 GMT, [email protected] (Tim Keating) wrote:

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[usenetquote2]>>The whole H1-B displacement of American IT workers is kinda a moot point. There is[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>currently a migration of programming jobs, Development and Maintance from the US to[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>India, There is nothing that will stop this. IBM, FORD and other large companies[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>have announced increases in Indian positions.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>There is a large H1-B , American trained, Indian workforce, willing to accept lower[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>wages, experenced, ready to assume positions.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>American companies are setting up IT shops in India,They are forming alliances with[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>Indian universities.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>In the near future any maintance/ developmental programming for large corporations,[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>that can be, probably will be done off shore.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>If I were a programmer I would be considering a move to management and an[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]>>investment in learning a foreign language.[/usenetquote2]
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Old Apr 29th 2001, 2:03 am
  #30  
Carlos Antunes
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Tim Keating wrote:
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What threat? Besides, what makes you think you have the right to do what you propose?
It's not your property, you should not touch it!

    >
    >
    >
    >

What the heck are you talking about?

    >
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What the heck are you talking about? Cisco sells because people want to buy. That is
all there is to it.

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Self-destructive practices? Again, what the heck are you talking about?

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Let me guess, and you are going to be the man behind the vendetta, right?

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Good luck with the boycott. If you were smarter, you'd buy their stock instead
of whining.

Regards, Carlos Antunes.

--
"I swear by my life and by my love of it - that I will never live for the sake of
another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."
-- John Galt, hero of Atlas Shrugged
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...76/andresworld
 

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