krunchiexx

I'm sure you get a lot of these questions and I think I already know the answer, but I'd like to be reassured.

I was given a fixed penalty notice for "supplying alcohol to a minor" a few years ago.
I was not arrested (at no point did they say "I am arresting you for...") and it never went to court. I paid the fine and that was that.

Am I ok to answer NO to the relevant question on the ESTA?

Noorah101

1. What do YOU think the answer is?

2. Is "supplying alcohol to a minor" a CIMT? (I don't know the answer, but it sounds like it in my layman's opinion, and you will need to know the answer for sure, before checking "yes" or "no").

3. How exactly is that question worded on ESTA (regarding arrests)? Does it say "arrested and/or..." anything else?

Rene

Noorah101

Never mind, I looked it up. Arrested or convicted of.

So, if you end up paying a fine, doesn't that mean you were found guilty of something? Isn't being guilty the same as being convicted?

I don't know the answer, just throwing out the questions for others to comment.

Rene

krunchiexx

1) I think the answer is No.

2) I don't think it is. I know wikipedia isn't the answer to everything, but presumably it would come under "liquor violation" and is not considered a CIMT.

3) it says:

Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude or a violation related to a controlled substance; or been arrested or convicted for two or more offenses for which the aggregate sentence to confinement was five years or more; or been a controlled substance trafficker; or are you seeking entry to engage in criminal or immoral activities?

I was not arrested, I was not convicted (I have no criminal record), and as best I can tell alcohol is not a controlled substance.

krunchiexx

From the Home Office website:

Does receiving a penalty notice count as a conviction?
No. Receipt of a penalty notice offers the recipient the opportunity to discharge their liability to conviction for the offence to which the notice relates or to request a court hearing. Payment of a penalty involves neither a finding nor an acceptance of guilt and removes the possibility of being proceeded against or gaining a record of criminal conviction for the offence for which the notice was issued.

Bob

The problem though is not how the UK perceive it, but how the US do. I don't know the answer, but it if often not as cut and dry as it should be.

ian-mstm

This is irrelevant... you're dealing with US law... not UK law.

Ian

Noorah101

I agree with Ian and Bob. Supplying alcohol to a minor is a big deal here in the USA, and it's USA law that comes into consideration, not UK law (even though it happened in the UK).

Might want to have a consultation with a US immigration attorney (with specific knowledge of CIMT) before completing ESTA.

Rene

materialcontroller

I agree with all of these points, and think 100% that you should tick NO to this question.

S Folinsky

Not providing any advice here.

Out of idle curiosity, I did a WestLaw search of Board of Immigration Appeals cases of "alcohol & 'moral turpitude'". That search was a tad too broad but it generated only 64 hits and by ignoring the "unpublished' hits, it was good for a quick scan. Most of the case law involved crimes not involving alcohol. However, there were several cases from the 1940's and '50's involving sales.

Unfortunately, the free public listing of cases on the Department of Justice website only goes back to volume 8 of the "I&N Decisions" and the cases on WestLaw were in volumes 1 and 3.

Michelmas

A quick google search indicates its a 4th degree felony punishable by up to 18months jail time for Buying or procuring alcohol to a minor in New Mexico,

24hrs community service and a misdemeanor charge in CA, which gets bumped to 1 yr jail if charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor,

Gross misdemeanor and 1 yr in jail in Minesotta.

America is at more strict on serving alcohol to minors than they are in the UK.

materialcontroller

Still doesn't mean it's moral turpitude though.

ian-mstm

There are some who believe that alcohol is a controlled substance, since its availability is both regulated and restricted.

Ian

materialcontroller

Good point but does it have any force on immigration proceedings when alcohol isn't covered by the Controlled Substances Act?

lansbury

FAM says liquor violations are not a CIMT