snowguy

No.

Unfortunately, as both of these (burgary and shoplifting - and presumably some others at the same time as the shoplifting) may be crimes involving moral turpitude, then the first statement on the VWP steps in the way. Although there are petty offenses clauses for crimes involving moral turpitude, it is if you have only committed 1 crime, and that relies on a maximum possible jail time of one year or less, and less than 6 months served.

Thats why the actual wording is important, to see how it relates to the US Code.

The actual statement on the VWP is

"Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude or a violation related to a controlled substance; or have been arrested or convicted for two or more offenses for which the aggregate sentence to confinement was five years or more; or have been a controlled substance trafficker; or are you seeking entry to engage in criminal or immoral activities?"

As stated earlier

I am, of course, open to correction on any of this.

ian-mstm

In a perfect world this might be true... but the truth is, neither you nor I really know for sure. You're making an unwarranted assumption based on your frustration with the system. It's a common tale in these forums, as people with similar immigration issues make the same assumptions... or worse, they start to slam illegal immigrants as though the illegal immigrants are somehow to blame for their own situation. It's a non sequitur.


The punishment you received is irrelevant in light of the punishment you might have received... and, FWIW, that is what's used for the determination.


To borrow a lottery analogy... you can't win if you don't play the game!

Ian

crg

The "2 or more offenses" aspect is for being actually sentenced (suspended or imposed) to 5 years. That's 212(a)(2)(B) but I doubt that applies in this case.

Paul: When did you get off of probation? If you have the burglary/theft in 2007 and at least one other theft/fraud-like shoplifting in 2002 and you were over 18 in 2002, the chances of a waiver are not good. They usually like at least 3 years of clean living *after* the probation is up.

paul1963

I fully understand what you are saying but this whole situation stinks imho. I have made mistakes served the punishment and rebuilt my life, I have paid my debt to society so what gives the Americans who up until now I have been very fond of, the right to judge me?

Basically a denial for a visa is like saying to me we don't trust you. Fair enough but they have no reason not to I have done no wrong in their country.

This forum whilst being very helpful is overwhelmingly telling me not to bother applying so maybe that is something that I will have to come to terms with.

Finding an alternative destination seems an impossible task, Im not a beach person I prefer history and what Chicago and Washington offer together with the sentiment of returning to Chicago with this time somebody I can share it with, my girlfriend, is just something that I don't feel that can be matched.

snowguy

Thanks you that. So you can actually get repeatedly done for DUI, and as long as you never spent more than 5 years in jail still get to use the VWP.

" for which the aggregate sentences to confinement actually imposed were 5 years or more is inadmissable."

Advice was to apply, but don't hold your breathe.

Japan and New Zealand could still be open without a Visa.

paul1963

Hi crg14624.

The probation although it was imposed never really existed. My Lawyer just like the Probation office did gave me the impression that my three pronged sentence was way over over, the magistrates must have thought the same by accepting my mitigation even the lack of it put forward by my solicitor. Burglary is a serious crime almost certain to end up with a prison sentence, I didn't and deep down they knew why but imposed what they did on me in voice only if you can believe that.

My probation consisted on doing a course of thinking skills, fair enough but my probation officer didn't even put my name forward, going to the probation office weekly for a month, then fortnightly for another 2 months was all he wanted me to do and I was in and out in 10 minutes, the final three months were written off so to speak.

Te court on the day knew what was what, unbelievably 2 months after sentence was imposed I fell behind on my fine, I was summoned to court and explained to the magistrates why I had. For the first time I was standing there telling the three of them that the bloody fine should not have been imposed in the first place and why, they looked at each other and the chairman said " Did you say any of this at the time in court"? I said I wasn't allowed to. They gave me the impression that If I had, I wouldn't have been standing there in front of them, they said what I had just told them was very interesting !!!!

It almost feels like the authorities are embarrassed by the sentence, then the USA come along and inflict the real punishment, that's really how it feels.

crg

Immigration laws going back way more than 100 years give them the right to judge you. It's the same thing that would prevent a US citizen in the same boat from going to the UK, Canada, or many other places. It's the same type of law that requires someone to get an HIV test before getting certain tourist visas to Russia. Some nations even require a pregnancy test prior to travel for visit.

The US is not even close to being the most restrictive.

I know it seems unfair, but if Congress didn't make such laws requiring another layer of scrutiny, and foreign criminal visitors cost a US citizen the loss of their property or worse, then Congress would have a problem with the voting public.

crg

That's a gray area. Someone with that many DUI could be considered inadmissible as an alcoholic with dangerous behavior. It would be more accurate to say someone could get 10 convictions for littering or speeding as long as the sentences when added were not more than 5 years, they would be theoretically able to use the VWP. Keep in mind that suspended sentences count the same as those served.

In practice, they can just refuse anyone they want under the VWP. They don't have to be right, and there is no review.

It would be better to say they wouldn't need a waiver on their visa.

paul1963

At £150 a time including the visa, acpro and visa courier it's just another USA money making factory with a nice little perk going to the Police no doubt.

paul1963

It's the Gray areas that are causing that country the real problems though Crg, setting out to look tough whilst clamping down on remorseful citizens like myself while the real idiots slip through the net.

Im all for clamping down on illegal immigrants but do you think it's fair that the bloke in the queue next to be also gets a NO when his convictions have put people in hospital or left families living in fear is fair? Its damn right wrong to have a system that puts petty criminals in the same bracket.

crg

Most visa fees and rules are based on reciprocity. That means the US will try to mirror it's visa policy and costs to match the country that the embassy is located. For example, if China charges $800 for a certain type of visa, the US will also charge that amount. Don't think the USA is any different.

Also, don't think all of the other criminals slip in. It's not uncommon for the US to find out. People have been known to wait in jail for several weeks or much longer even if they ask to be returned foreign right away. It takes that long to arrange travel if there are no direct international flights from that region of the US.

paul1963

That's interesting crg14624, is it a hunge you have or do you know it for sure only I thought the rehabilitation of offenders act is not recognised in The States and 3 years clean living would amount to vittually the same policy would it not?

crg

They do take each request on a case by case basis, but I heard the information about the 3 years of no problems from the people who actually reviewed the waiver applications. I will admit that it's been a long time since I spoke to them, but that's what it was a few years ago.

Any similarity to the offenders act is likely to be coincidental.

paul1963

Hello again crg14624, I read with interest that you heard this from the people who actually reviewed the waiver applications.

I never knew this happened I thought there was no appeal process but it's good news that somewhere along the line, somebody takes a second look.

Is a review the same as a second visa application though or is it a case of they look into lets say granting leniency because I am only going for two weeks, is a review a kind of less formal risk assessment?

Rete

You might also like to read what the US Consulate's updated website has to say about ESTA and how to fix mistakes you made on the form.

http://www.usembassy.org.uk/visaservices/?p=202