paul1963

Please help, I know this is a long thread but it's best to give you all the whole story if I want an honest answer.

I am planning a poignant trip to Chicago in June 2010 a city that I fell in love with when my Father played soccer for The Chicago Sting in the NASL in 1975. In 2002 I went back for the first time and went to see everything that I saw 27 years earlier including where we lived, the only thing missing was somebody to share it with.

These days I have a girlfriend and I and I am already planning for us to return to Chicago on holiday next year, with trips to DC and NYC also. As I said I love Chicago and have told her so much about it, I know we are talking next year but I have planned it in my head already and know exactly where we want to stay, who we want to fly with and what we want to see, all I need to do know is wait until the flight and hotels take bookings for June 2010.

Disapointingly however, over the weekend I learned all about the new rules on entering America and I have to admit I am bordering on devastation about it.

Yesterday I got myself into a pickle with the online ESTA forms so much so that the USA authorities or Homeland security may already now have me blacklisted.

This is because I filled the ESTA form in on line and got immmediate authorisation to travel but after I did this I checked the small print and realised that my criminal conviction of 2007 does fall into the moral turpitude category so to try and do the honest thing I filled in another ESTA FORM through a different website this time clicking on the part to admit I had a conviction but the result was then different telling me that I had to ring a number which I didn't do.

Would anybody know where this leaves me now? I know that many members on here do not advise lying on an ESTA form which I agree with but I made a genuine oversight with the one that got authorised and therefore tried to correct it on a second form but it in doing so it did not authorise acceptance like the previous one did.

So where does this leave me guys? have I shot myself in the foot to an extent where somebody from Esta or homeland security will be already be questioning why I have submitted 2 forms with one accepted and one not because surely they will see the reasons why. Does this now mean that if I took the risk in travelling my passport will send out an alert to them at customs? after all for all they know I could be travelling this June and not next, has my error basically eliminated the option of me travelling with an unexposed criminal record and hoping for the best once in the States like many people do?

My second concern if the first one was not enough is I have read on here and on other forums that one of the questions US customs ask you at the airport is have you visited America before? Now I did in 2002 but as I had a criminal record then too I did not admit it on the form on the plane and I was fine but because of all the changes if I am asked tha question on arrival and I say no, will they know that I did do in 2002 even though there is nothing to suggest it on my passport.

This is so important to be if you could help so thanks in advance.

Ray

If you have a recent CIMT conviction ..then you have to apply for a B-2
Are you sure its a CIMT??

paul1963

Thankyou for replying Ray:

I will be totally honest with you. I worked in my brother-in-laws nightclub both day and night back in 2007. In the daytime it was for him but at night I was self employed operating a fun casino.

Brother-in-law or not he was charging me £25 a night for usage space and £25 per night for a childrens charity. To cut a long story short after so many months I wrote to the charity and asked if the amount they had received from me £450 which I had certificates from them for could be put in writing as the inland revenue did not recognise certificates as outgoings which I could claim on. I had a shock when they told me that they had never received any money and no certificates had been issued by them.

It turned out that my BIL had pocketed the money and got somebody to forge the certificates. I was angry and a couple of weeks later had a moment of madness and entered the office one night when the club was open and took back the £440. I did have access to the office during the day but never needed to go in there at night but the fact that I did was classed by the Police when I was caught on CCTV as burglary-theft, I explained my mitigation but they did not want to know despite my evidence. My solicitor advised me to plead guilty which I did but I still hoped that I could give my side of the story but I didn't get the chance. I got 100 hours community service, probation and ordered to pay the money back which I found disgusting. The worst part is he is a charity thief and gets to go to America when I might not be able to. Will this story mean that I will not get a visa? As I believe that it is not so much what my crime is over here, it is how the equivalant crime is deemed if it were carried out in the states.

Ray

Probably is A CIMT but thats decision is the
consulates to make ... I would still apply for the B-2
you have little choice now..but don't get your hopes too high..

paul1963

Do you mean I have little chice Ray because of the mistake I made with the ESTA form yesterday? You would definitely say than that by having received authorization to travel, by filling in a second form but this time saying I have a conviction would automatically generate an alert on my passport if I decided to take a chance and go to the States based on being given initial authorisation.

Does the picture and finger printing security procedure show anything up if I have commited an offence over here? I suppose it must do why would they carry it out otherwise.

Ray

No idea ... but your first Esta was a lie ..a path not worth going down

No one will ever advice you to try an illegal act

meauxna

What you need to know about ESTA is that it's just a pre-clearance. It's not an E ticket, and it won't get you in the US, it just gets you on the plane.
I can't see any advantage in trying to use the approval to get on the plane, knowing you're likely going to have further questions at the border (when you're jet lagged and excited and have GF in tow for the Big Exciting Trip) due to your 2nd ESTA or even walking into a situation where they've checked your records and figured out that you did lie to get the ESTA authorization... then the whole thing about the trip in 02 comes out.. none of this is sounding good.

You have over a year to collect your thoughts and apply for a visa. Most people find out they need one when they don't have enough time to apply, so this is good for you. Spread the whole thing out & hope the Consulate issues you a visa. If they do not, and they say that you are eligible to use the VWP, you'll still have to visit Secondary inspection on arrival, but it should be a much nicer visit.

crg

What number did they want you to call? Why didn't you call it?

In the worst case scenario, what was the maximum possible jail term for the offense that you were convicted of?

Either way, you may have to seek a visa. You may or may not need a waiver depending on the seriousness of the offense.

If it qualifies as a single petty offense, then claiming not to have a CIMT conviction on earlier entry to the US is not considered a material fact and therefore lying about is much less likely to have any real consequences.

paul1963

Thank you guys for your replies, amy more advice would be appreciated.

Meuxna I understand what you are saying but I did not deliberately lie on my authorised ESTA appllication, I clicked no to the question because I was unaware that what I did qualified for CIMT.

So are you definitely saying that by trying to correct it with the 2nd application would have definitely caused alarm and they will therefore have already checked me out before I arrive as a result.

A friend has told me why not include Canada in my trip as he seems to think that if I got a plane in and out of Toronto purely because it is a beautiful City and worth seeing anyway, then got an Amtrak down to Buffalo then on to NYC, DC and Chicago before rreturning to Toronto for my flight home, he says that the most the US authorities can do is deport me back to Canada at customs and not back to the UK. Is this right??

snowguy

No, you can't get into Canada for at least 5 years, even then you would need a visa. Depending what your conviction was for, it would most likely be under the 1968 Theft Act, it could (would) be an indictable offence in Canada, beleive the maximum sentence is 14 years if its burglary.

15 years, burglary in the second degree, by the sounds of it. Depends what the wording is on the conviction.

Thats why people are interested in what you we actually convicted of, was it burglary, was it theft, was it both.

crg

Yeh, when Canada wonders why you were denied entry to the US, they may decide to detain you until they remove you to the UK. They aren't fond of people with convictions either.

lofty79

What's the problem with his trip in 02? Sounds like he was convicted in 07.

OP - apply for the B-2 visa, you have plenty of time before your planned trip.

Best of luck.

snowguy

As above really.

meauxna

Something else from 02, per his OP.

paul1963

The offence was charged with Burglary of a property other than a private dwelling. It was my place of work, during the day I had keys but no need to at night, it was open to the public at the time of the "crime" and it was busy on the night, it wasn't as if I dressed in black and broke my way in during the middle of the night dressed in black there is alot of mitigation including why I did it in the first place. I didn't break into the office either the door was unlocked if the manager who I was looking for had been in there I would have done what I normally do and sat down with him and had a chat and a pint, my mind wasn't made up to take the money it was only when I found the office empty that the red mist appeared and I was not in an office that was out of bounds to me, that is the worst part, if the manager was off I opened up for private functions etc and ran the place.

I gave the fella over £440 in good faith and as a result I was advertising a charity which needed to be involved for my fun casino to be legal at the time so all that time I could have got busted for false advertising when all along I thought the money was going to them. It was my brother in laws club , anywhere else and I would have thought twice but he conned me and I wasn't having it. After taking the money and having a chance to pay it back I was arrested and the Police gave him the money back, he then sold my equipment and pocketed another £500.

So you see there was mitigation, loads of it but where I fell down was taking my solicitors advice and pleading guilty with no opportunity to put my case forward, I should have pleaded guilty then explained on what grounds but I didn'nt.

Today I was told that I may be able to appeal under the miscarriage of justice act so I will look in to it.

It wasn't aggrevated burglary it was done out of anger fuelled by a few pints that brought on the dutch courage, it wasn't pre-meditated it was an on the spot decision without ever really thinking about it as all I knew was I had been conned I had given over £440 to a bloke for a childrens cancer charity and it went in his pocket.