Becoming a citizen?

Old Aug 19th 2015, 5:49 pm
  #31  
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Default Re: Becoming a citizen?

Originally Posted by between two worlds
Good point; I did not realise some other nationalities have difficulty keeping two citizenships.

Re your first point, yes, I know they don't force you to legally renounce your other citizenship. But they force you to swear you renounce your allegiance..

"I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen."
…then a whole bit about fidelity to the Constitution and fighting on behalf of the US etc….and finally,
.."and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

I know that in practice,as long as UK and USA are not at war, this doesn't actually make a difference to my life.
But as a British citizen, I feel very strange renouncing, in such strong language, all my allegiance and fidelity to Queen and country. Especially as I hope to spend longer periods of time in that country, UK, and exercise there all the rights and responsibilities of a citizen.

It's the wording of what we have to swear to that bothers me. Doesn't anyone relate?
I guess the closest thing I can think of is people who get married, and say its till death do them part... it seems like some people change their mind after making that promise as well...

I can't really relate, despite having a British mother, I only acquired my British Citizenship by registration because I was born before 1983 and outside the UK and have a German father.

I would feel less bad about pledging allegiance here, where everyone else does it everyday at school for years than in the UK, where most Citizens have never done it and some would probably refuse to do so...
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Old Aug 19th 2015, 6:02 pm
  #32  
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Default Re: Becoming a citizen?

Originally Posted by kimilseung
I dont think I have any allegiance or fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate or state. I think that is a different issue to having a sense of belonging and ownership to the country and culture of Britain.
Ah, this is the crux of it. Very interestingly put, and food for thought.

What exactly is the meaning of this "fidelity" and "allegiance" that we are abjuring and renouncing?

Does being British entail an allegiance and fidelity to the Queen and to Britain?

Interestingly, I have found a blog post by an American girl who was becoming a British citizen but having trouble with the part of the oath that says she must be faithful and bear true allegiance to the Queen and her heirs, because she doesn't believe in a hereditary monarchy. She absolutely believes in the rest of the oath, wants to uphold the UK, its laws, etc, as the oath requires her to promise, but does not want to have to swear allegiance to the Queen.

She finds discussion about the topic which tries to construe it in such a way that she could indeed swear the oath, but would not necessarily be upholding the concept of the monarchy; just accepting that it is the current status quo. But she felt they were rhetorical and somewhat cheating evasions.

She says "I have a major ethical problem with this," and goes on to say how she and her husband wrote their marriage vows very carefully in order not to vow anything they didn't mean; "and I generally take public vows very seriously."

Her issue isn't the same as mine, because the UK does not ask her to renounce her prior allegiance to the USA.
But her misgivings about swearing in public something she doesn't mean are shared by me.

And this UK oath does make it look as if allegiance to the Queen and to Britain are part of the concept of citizenship….so are they integral to what it means to be British?

Kimilseung, your response is interesting. Can we separate the concept of belonging/ownership of British culture and country, from the concept of allegiance and fidelity to that country?

Possibly.

By swearing the oath, I am saying:
I hereby renounce and abjure all fidelity and allegiance to the Queen and to Britain. I am no longer faithful to Britain. It no longer has my loyalty. It no longer has my allegiance…

Can I say this and still honestly consider myself British, and claim the right to live in Britain, vote, have all the other rights a British citizen has, if I have publicly renounced Britain???

Possibly. If someone else has more to add along these lines, I'd be interested.
I currently do not see any way to feel comfortable doing this, to swear that US citizenship oath without feeling as if I am perjuring myself….but if it can be construed in some way that allows more latitude, I'd like to know.
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Old Aug 19th 2015, 6:05 pm
  #33  
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Default Re: Becoming a citizen?

Originally Posted by tht
I guess the closest thing I can think of is people who get married, and say its till death do them part... it seems like some people change their mind after making that promise as well...

I can't really relate, despite having a British mother, I only acquired my British Citizenship by registration because I was born before 1983 and outside the UK and have a German father.

I would feel less bad about pledging allegiance here, where everyone else does it everyday at school for years than in the UK, where most Citizens have never done it and some would probably refuse to do so...
Right, that's very different; one of my children is in that position, with a US father, and became British by registration as born before 1983. But doing it that way round, US first and then becoming British, doesn't cause any problems with the US. And The British don't require you to renounce your prior citizenship….
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Old Aug 19th 2015, 6:12 pm
  #34  
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Default Re: Becoming a citizen?

Originally Posted by between two worlds
By swearing the oath, I am saying:
I hereby renounce and abjure all fidelity and allegiance to the Queen and to Britain. I am no longer faithful to Britain. It no longer has my loyalty. It no longer has my allegiance…

Can I say this and still honestly consider myself British, and claim the right to live in Britain, vote, have all the other rights a British citizen has, if I have publicly renounced Britain???

Possibly. If someone else has more to add along these lines, I'd be interested.
I currently do not see any way to feel comfortable doing this, to swear that US citizenship oath without feeling as if I am perjuring myself….but if it can be construed in some way that allows more latitude, I'd like to know.
What does Britain mean to you? Is it the state or the sum of the cultures that have grown out of the people and the islands soil?

I have no loyalty to any Queen or monarch nor to a state, as that is only as good as those who control that state. States values can come and go, I will be happy with some and deplore others, they are a bit thrown away. I have a similar problem with the US pledge of allegiance "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the republic for which it stands" I can not pledge allegiance to any flag or any republic. To ideas and ideals yes, but not to a piece of cloth and a moveable feast like a Republic.
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Old Aug 19th 2015, 6:26 pm
  #35  
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Default Re: Becoming a citizen?

Originally Posted by kimilseung
What does Britain mean to you? Is it the state or the sum of the cultures that have grown out of the people and the islands soil?
Cricket, the sound of leather on willow, jumpers for goal posts, cup of tea what?
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Old Aug 19th 2015, 6:28 pm
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Default Re: Becoming a citizen?

Originally Posted by sir_eccles
Cricket, the sound of leather on willow, jumpers for goal posts, cup of tea what?
Exactly, and none of that is being renounced or abjured.
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Old Aug 19th 2015, 6:48 pm
  #37  
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Default Re: Becoming a citizen?

Originally Posted by kimilseung
For me, there always seems to be something else to spend $700.00 on.
And I think it has just about doubled since I naturalized in 2006. I wanted to do it while the kids were all minors so that only my wife and I had to pay and the kids became USCs for free. Once kids become adults, they have to file their own applications and pay the fee.
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Old Aug 19th 2015, 6:52 pm
  #38  
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Default Re: Becoming a citizen?

Originally Posted by between two worlds
By swearing the oath, I am saying:
I hereby renounce and abjure all fidelity and allegiance to the Queen and to Britain. I am no longer faithful to Britain. It no longer has my loyalty. It no longer has my allegiance…

Can I say this and still honestly consider myself British, and claim the right to live in Britain, vote, have all the other rights a British citizen has, if I have publicly renounced Britain???
Yes you can. And many others have done so.

Originally Posted by between two worlds
Possibly. If someone else has more to add along these lines, I'd be interested.
I currently do not see any way to feel comfortable doing this, to swear that US citizenship oath without feeling as if I am perjuring myself….but if it can be construed in some way that allows more latitude, I'd like to know.
You're overthinking it. The oath is out of date and means nothing in terms of your UK citizenship.
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Old Aug 19th 2015, 7:18 pm
  #39  
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Default Re: Becoming a citizen?

Originally Posted by between two worlds
Right, that's very different; one of my children is in that position, with a US father, and became British by registration as born before 1983. But doing it that way round, US first and then becoming British, doesn't cause any problems with the US. And The British don't require you to renounce your prior citizenship….
I guess it just comes down to what you feel comfortable with, in your case not doing it could have implications if they take your GC for not being resident, and/or may have inheritance tax consistences down the line.

I moved to the UK aged about 3 and lived there till I was about 25. I plan on retaining both my British (no issue) and German (will require prior approval and time) Citizenship's when I apply to naturalize as a USC in a year or so. My son will also have all 3 (I still need to do the German paperwork) and they will all give him different benefits (and responsibilities) but the key is he (as you would) would have more choices for the [unknown] future.
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Old Aug 19th 2015, 7:42 pm
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Default Re: Becoming a citizen?

Originally Posted by between two worlds
To go back to the OP's question, I certainly do "get it," I get the hesitation about becoming an American citizen.

But I have a problem with it that no-one else seems to relate to.
I would do it in a heartbeat if the wording of the oath were different.
But as it is, I would have to say, under oath, that I renounce all allegiance to my former country (UK).
Yes I totally relate to that! Would it be something I'd be willing to swear to?
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Old Aug 19th 2015, 7:46 pm
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Default Re: Becoming a citizen?

Originally Posted by DK007
Yes I totally relate to that! Would it be something I'd be willing to swear to?
When you get outside, undo what you just did by swearing an oath of allegiance to the UK, The Queen, her heirs, and her corgis.
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Old Aug 19th 2015, 7:57 pm
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Default Re: Becoming a citizen?

Originally Posted by MarylandNed
When you get outside, undo what you just did by swearing an oath of allegiance to the UK, The Queen, her heirs, and her corgis.
In other words, don't take it seriously?
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Old Aug 19th 2015, 9:59 pm
  #43  
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Default Re: Becoming a citizen?

Originally Posted by MarylandNed
Yes you can. And many others have done so.



You're overthinking it. The oath is out of date and means nothing in terms of your UK citizenship.
It may well be out of date, and I heartily wish they would change it!

I also know it means nothing in terms of my UK citizenship.

But surely one has to seriously consider the wording of an oath one swears to publicly, before officials, ending "so help me God" (or whatever formula you can chose if not religious)?
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Old Aug 20th 2015, 12:36 am
  #44  
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Default Re: Becoming a citizen?

I did it earlier this year and I understand how you feel. It is a little weird, but for me, I've chosen to make this my home, so it made sense. Also, all the practical reasons people have stated make it a sensible thing to do.
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Old Aug 20th 2015, 1:02 am
  #45  
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Default Re: Becoming a citizen?

Originally Posted by Malashaan
I did it earlier this year and I understand how you feel. It is a little weird, but for me, I've chosen to make this my home, so it made sense. Also, all the practical reasons people have stated make it a sensible thing to do.
Glad you understand!

Yes, absolutely, if you've chosen to make it your home, and not planning to go back to the UK to live, I can see one might have less difficulty with swearing to renounce Uk allegiance etc….
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