Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

Hi everyone,

(For the quick version, please scroll down to the bold part below)

In 2014 I had not done my homework before applying for a B2 visa. I barely knew about ESTA, and I did not realize that the embassy officers could suspect that a decent Swedish guy would even think about illegally overstaying in the U.S. At least that possibility had not crossed my mind. I was denied a visa due to insufficient ties to my home country.

Admittedly, I was sick and unemployed at the time, and I intended to stay for several months; so in retrospect I can see that the decision made sense to the officer.

Anyway, I’m in a different place now. I am employed and have several other factors tying me to Sweden. Now I would like to go back to the Bay Area, California, for six weeks or so, just for vacation and to see some friends I made there when studying in the area in 2008/2009. I also want to refresh my memories for a novel project I’m working on, inspired by those 2008/2009 experiences.

I recently submitted an ESTA application, but it was rejected. So what I’m looking at now is a new visa application where I make a case that both my situation and my travel plans have changed significantly since last time.

And here’s my question to you guys:

To maximize my chances of getting a B2 visa, would it be wiser to

1) say that I would be staying with a single mom with a kid and poor finances (which is what I probably would do, and so this would be closest to the truth. Our relationship is platonic, but I guess there’s a risk that the embassy wouldn’t believe me.)

2) say that I would be travelling alone, staying in this and that hotel, and that I primarily want to see Disneyland and Yosemite and whatnot (this would be farthest from the truth but perhaps arouse least suspicion)

3) say that I would be staying with a male friend with solid finances working with electronics in Silicon Valley, willing to write me a Letter of Invitation (he is also a very distant relative of mine, born and raised in the U.S.—should I leave out or include this fact if pursuing option 3?)

4) say that I would be staying with a retired Ph.D. psychologist (and his family) whom I’m acquainted but not close friends with, and who could probably also write a nice Letter of Invitation?

Lastly, would it hurt or support my case if I mentioned my sincere intention of gathering writing material for my novel? (I’m an aspiring novelist, unpublished but with ”a foot in the door” at a reputable publishing house after submitting another manuscript last year, so I’m serious about the work.)

* * *

I want to stress that I have the best of intentions with my planned trip. I only want to go there for six weeks and then go back. That’s it. I can’t leave my job, friends, family, apartment, etc. in Stockholm. But I learned the hard way last time that sometimes you have to be street smart in the visa business.

Extremely grateful for any input! Namasté.

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

On your latest ESTA application what was your answer to the question, "Have you ever been denied a visa?" I hope it was "Yes" ie truthful.

Others will be along to give specific advice, but you are already suggesting you give less than truthful information in your new B2 application. The ONLY thing you should do is give truthful answers. Anything else means you are risking being on the road to longer term problems, including never getting a visa.

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

Which of your 1, 2 3, and 4 is the truth? That is what you will put. And if you only recently submitted an ESTA application that was refused, you should give it some time before you try again. I believe six months or more has been mentioned in the past.

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

Which of your options is the truthful one? Choose that one. Always go with the truth with US Authorities...in fact always go with the truth in general. If you get caught out in the lie, it will look MUCH worse for you than if you had told the truth in the first place.

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

I have to agree with the others. Anything other than the truth is likely to bite you in the arse.

Consider this: 1) you tell the truth that you'll be staying with a friend and the officer may deny the visa; or 2) you say you're travelling alone and staying in a hotel and after further questions the officer decides you're lying and permanently bans you from the US (which, by the way, can and does happen).

Now... which scenario would you rather? Bottom line: Tell the truth. No one here will help you lie to gain an immigration benefit.


You recently have a denied ESTA and you now need to apply for a visa. That's not good. It makes you look desperate... and desperate people make very poor decisions. Case in point, your questions about which story to tell.


We all believe you... but, in all honestly, you can't prove it... insofar as it's impossible to prove a negative. So where does that leave you?

If I were you, I'd wait at least 6 months before applying for the visa and probably 12 months.

Ian

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

Yep, I agree with everyone. Always tell the truth.

Rene

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

If you are potentially ESTA eligible but have been denied an ESTA then IMO it is highly likely that another B-2 visa application will also fail, and another fail visa application will likely postpone even further into the future the time when you will be able to get an ESTA.

By most accounts, people who are ESTA eligible are frequently denied a B-2 visa even if they have an unblemished personal history.

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

A promising and talented novelist you may be, but leave your story-telling behind at the visa interview and stick to the facts. If you are staying with an unemployed single mother then, if asked, say so.

Letters of invitation are meaningless and not required. If anything they can count against you when they make wild promises of you returning home (no one can guarantee that you will actually board a plane) and the writer bearing the cost of your trip and providing you with free bed and board (in other words saying you have no means to support yourself).

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

This is all very helpful. Thanks for the prompt feedback.

The one and only reason I started even considering polishing my story is the fact that being completely transparent and candid got me nowhere with my first B2 application, even though I only had good intentions back then. Personally I’m much more comfortable with telling the truth, so I’m actually somewhat relieved that your recommendations point in the same direction.

@Twinkle0927: Why would I want to leave out my novel material research when asked for my intentions with the trip, if that’s part of my actual plans?

@Midatlantic: Yes, I answered truthfully to the ”Have you ever …” question. Hence the ESTA denial.

* * *

I learned from your kind feedback in 2014 that it was wise to wait 6—12 months after a visa denial before applying for an ESTA. But I didn’t know that it worked the other way around, too. Thanks for highlighting that.

All in all, I’m leaning towards waiting six months or so before submitting a new B2 application. Most likely I will be even more grounded in the Swedish community by then, and, as you point out, I will not look that desperate.

Do you think it would it make a significant difference odds-wise if I waited even longer (i.e. 12 months or more)?

Feel free to fill me in if I’ve gotten anything wrong.

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

In my opinion, leaving a longer period of time will only work positively in your favor. Leave long enough and you may find that an ESTA will be approved.

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

@tom169:

I applied for an ESTA right after my first B2 denial in 2014. It was rejected. Following your line of thought, I then waited almost two and a half years (!) before my next ESTA application (a few weeks ago); but that one didn’t go through either. I don’t know what to make of that.

I guess what I’m wondering is:

Given that each failed attempt—be it ESTA or visa—forces me to wait for another X months before trying again, which would be the better, safer choice next time I apply: ESTA or visa?


My understanding is that going for a visa would be smarter because of the personal interview, where I can present my credibility in a way the online ESTA application doesn’t leave room for. But it seems you’re hinting at the opposite.

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

Generally speaking, if you are ESTA-eligible, the US doesn't want you to apply for a B-2. The ESTA/VWP program was introduced to reduce the number of visa applications for low risk visitors to the US, and the pattern is that, generally, B-2 applications have a high probability of being denied where the VWP is available. I don't think your "credibility" is a huge issue - as with most applications for most visas, IMO the decision has already been taken before you show up at the interview - "DENIED".

The only notable area of exception is for people who are retired who want to spend longer periods in the US than the VWP allows.

Be thankful that the VWP exists and that you are eligible, because the vast majority of people are not, and still get their B-2 applications denied.

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

Thanks, @Pulaski. That makes sense. I take it that I’ll be better off waiting another 6—12 months and than submit a new standard ESTA application. It annoys me not being given room to explain the cause for the previous visa denial and how circumstances have changed since, but I guess I’ll just have to chew it up and hope for the best.

By the way, am I even VWP eligible after one visa and two ESTA denials? I thought I was technically disqualified, even though exceptions are made by the accidental mercifulness of reviewing officers.

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

Contrary to the oft-repeated myth, a visa denial does not make you VWP ineligible

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

But in this case maybe he is ineligible when you consider that more than 2 and a half years passed between b2 visa denial and the esta application? Have you ever heard of such a long period of time. If the denial was instant then it would suggest to me he is on some type of list. If the denial was after processing than ok perhaps more time is need before it will be approved.

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

Was your esta application instantly rejected or did it saying authorisation pending and then give you the rejection some time later?

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

"Some type of list"? Sounds a little paranoid. :rolleyes:

If he was on "some type of "list" then that would have shown up on the denial last time around.

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

If the esta was denied instantly then there has to be something on his file to cause that to happen. If it was denied after a period of time with application pending than the denial was done manually by consul officer after a review of his U.S immigration file. If it is the first scenario then perhaps he is screwed for the esta for good?

Did the embassy official who denied his visa mark his immigration file in someway that was incorrect perhaps to be a jerk. That has been known to happen. If he was refused because they thought he intended to work illegally wouldn't future esta's be denied based upon that premise?. If you are banned for some reason would they tell you were?

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

That's nonsense as there is no evidence that all applications that are first marked as pending are actually reviewed by a person.

I have a lot of family and friends coming over later this year and so far all of them have first hit the pending status. No way can USCIS keep up with manually processing them all in that timeframe.

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

Then how are they reviewed if not by a person. The esta is a computer following a set of unwavering commands and scanning passenger information against databases and markers flagged into the system by consulate officers. A human being must come into the process at some point?

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

Most likely most ESTA applications are sent straight through, and only those with a potential issue sent for manual decisioning, such as ESTA applications where some has ticked "yes" for previously denied visa.

There is always going to be a name scrub too, against a list of known terrorists and other trouble makers. :nod:

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

If approval is not immediate, the computer runs the application through an algorithm and an ever expanding decision tree until such time as it hits an endpoint. It's then either approved or denied. There's no evidence that there's any human interaction at all... and, in fact, there's no need for a person to be involved. Why? Because the decision is always either approved or denied. There's no other choice... and it's easier to simply tell someone to get a visa.

Ian

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

I think this is the most likely explanation. :goodpost:

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

:goodpost:

Ian

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

It sounds like that machine off person of interest to me. :eek:

Lets assume your reasonably correct and that explains the process when authorisation is pending and then denied the computer likely has an algorithm based on lapsed time since the visa denial and when he passes that time period the application will approve. What if he has been denied instantly? Wouldn't that suggest there is a "flag" on the system. And if so wouldn't that "flag" always be there? Should he not be considering the so called DHS Trip inquiry as others have?

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

Assuming there was nothing obvious in the ESTA application itself that triggered a denial (such as answering yes when asked if you've ever had a visa denial), then yes... that seems reasonable.


Perhaps not always... but, yes, likely from the person's first contact with US Immigration.


No - because that's not what TRIP is for.

Ian

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

@Everyone:

The applications were not rejected right off-hand.

Both ESTA applications (2014, right after B2 denial, and 2017, a few weeks ago) were reviewed and processed: the page prompted me to check in again within 72 hours (”this does not indicate a negative finding”). That is, no automatic denial.

And for the record, I truthfully checked the ”Have you ever been refused a visa” box.

Your discussions are informative, please keep them coming.

I’ve sometimes imagined that the consul I met in 2014 made some unfavorable note about me which has followed me ever since (I was civilized and polite, albeit a bit nervous by her interrogating style, and genuinely surprised and in a bit of a shock over her decision; but I didn’t argue with her and were completely honest when presenting my case). But that I will never know.

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

So it sounds like you have been caught up in the computer coding. The esta system probably has a time setting to refuse applications once you pass that time setting it should approve with a bit of luck. If it was me I would follow the advice given by others and hold of on another visa application for the time being.

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

A last shot, if you’re still following this thread:

As I pondered travel alternatives, I came to think of Victoria, BC, Canada, which I’ve been wanting to visit for a while. Then I thought, ”what if it’s easier to enter the U.S. via Canada?” It seems highly unlikely that there would be such a wormhole, but I checked the Canadian government’s website, and they do in fact state that when travelling by land or sea, no ESTA application is needed if the traveler comes from a visa waiver program country.

What they do ask for, though, is for you to fill out a I-94W form on-the-go, which includes all the regular ESTA application questions, such as ”Have you ever been refused a U.S. visa?”.

So what I’m wondering is, are the chances of getting into the U.S. by any means higher if opting for the Canada land/sea route than the chances of having a standard online ESTA application approved? (provided that I answer truthfully to the ”Have you ever” question)

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

They ask very similar questions on the i94 w form. You again have to list the denial of the visa. You would at bare minimum be hauled into secondary and if denied entry sent back to Canada. Such a denial of entry would mean you could never use the VWP again. Meaning you would have to revisit the B2 route in the future. And your b2 problems would likely be compounded by that denial of entry. It also smacks of desperation to me and will to them as well.

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

Might be easier to Holiday elsewhere.

Re: Advice for new B2 application after previous denial
 

As I mentioned 8 days ago, when you're desperate you tend to make very poor decisions. This is a very poor decision.


What you seem to be missing, is a sense of historical context. Prior to ESTA, everyone who wanted to enter the US on the VWP had to complete an I-94W (the "W" stands for "Waiver"... as in Visa Waiver Program). After September 11, 2001, it was quicker to pre-screen people so that if you were allowed to board an aircraft headed for the US (which is what ESTA is... it's permission to travel) then chances are your VWP entry would be approved. It saved you from an 8 or 10 hour flight only to be turned back around once you got off the plane.

For you, ESTA has already been denied. You need to put 2+2 together to figure out what's in store for you if you try to enter the US via a Canadian land border.

Ian