Dan

Some airports (especially in the NYC area) send holders of the ADIT stamp
directly to secondary inspection.

This is insane because nothing could be easier than punching the A number on
the computer at primary inspection to verify the stamp is genuine.

As it happens, tourists clear immigration faster than lawful residents.

Just to give you an idea, there are hundreds of people in the secondary
(first come, first served) are at JFK and you are not guarenteed to make a
connection once in that area.

Who had that genious idea?!

crg

So you think that some red ink smeared in a foreign passport is more secure than a laser I-551 card?

So what if it's a real Alien number? How do they verify that the person is the real bearer of the document. You're going to rely on a 3rd world hand written passport and photo to verify that the bearer is the same person? Kids have fraudulently obtained passports from some of these countries in order to sign up for little league.

I'm sure they have the procedure in place due to problems they were experiencing.

Dan

FYI, I was using a Western European "advanced" passport which would qualify
for a VWP. And, FYI, the whole point of biometric passports is that the
photo can be displayed on the monitor rather than viewed from the passport
whose lamination may cause distortion. What would be more perfect than an
electronic biometrics images (photos, fingerprint if you don't know what
biometrics means) stored at the PR databases? Oracle has had it for ever
for its employees - you swiped your card (or punch your number) - the
security pers. could see your photo on his/her monitor immediately.

Were you speaking seriously? If you were, you may qualify to participate in
their various taskforces. You will catch terrorists by the thousands.

"crg14624" <member20421@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected] m...
    >> Some airports (especially in the NYC area) send holders of the ADIT
    >> stamp
    >> directly to secondary inspection.
    >> This is insane because nothing could be easier than punching the A
    >> number on
    >> the computer at primary inspection to verify the stamp is genuine.
    >> As it happens, tourists clear immigration faster than lawful
    >> residents.
    >> Just to give you an idea, there are hundreds of people in the
    >> secondary
    >> (first come, first served) are at JFK and you are not guarenteed to
    >> make a
    >> connection once in that area.
    >> Who had that genious idea?!
    > So you think that some red ink smeared in a foreign passport is more
    > secure than a laser I-551 card?
    > So what if it's a real Alien number? How do they verify that the person
    > is the real bearer of the document. You're going to rely on a 3rd world
    > hand written passport and photo to verify that the bearer is the same
    > person? Kids have fraudulently obtained passports from some of these
    > countries in order to sign up for little league.
    > I'm sure they have the procedure in place due to problems they were
    > experiencing.
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com

crg

Buddy, you don't even have a biometric passport. You have a machine readable passport (MRP). Just because is has >>>>> at the bottom doesn't make it biometric.

In 1996, Malaysia became the only country in the world to issue biometric passports. There is a chip in the back cover that contains information including the photo. In January, they added fingerprints to a 2nd generation chip.

The deadline for biometric visa waiver passports was pushed back for at least a year. So you don't have one. Don't be ashamed. Many amateurs such as yourself don't know the difference between an MRP and a biometric passport.

Dan

I know all that, but the CIS database *does* have all the biometric
information that would allow the officer to identify the passenger just by
pulling the record using either an A# or SSN. No document is tamper-proof.
An internal, secure database is.

If you read the official documents of the committee that deals with secure
travel documents, that's their method of choice. However, privacy laws in
many countries heavily restrict access to passport/ID card records hence the
proposed use of a chip or other means to record the encrypted data ON the
passport.

The US does not have such legal restrictions WRT alien records at its own
POE's.

Do you get it now?

"crg14624" <member20421@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected] m...
    >> FYI, I was using a Western European "advanced" passport which would
    >> qualify
    >> for a VWP. And, FYI, the whole point of biometric passports is that
    >> the
    >> photo can be displayed on the monitor rather than viewed from the
    >> passport
    >> whose lamination may cause distortion. What would be more perfect
    >> than an
    >> electronic biometrics images (photos, fingerprint if you don't know
    >> what
    >> biometrics means) stored at the PR databases? Oracle has had it for
    >> ever
    >> for its employees - you swiped your card (or punch your number) - the
    >> security pers. could see your photo on his/her monitor immediately.
    >> Were you speaking seriously? If you were, you may qualify to
    >> participate in
    >> their various taskforces. You will catch terrorists by the thousands.
    >> "crg14624" <member20421@british_expats.com> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected] m...
    >> >> Some airports (especially in the NYC area) send holders of the ADIT
    >> >> stamp
    >> >> directly to secondary inspection.
    >> >> This is insane because nothing could be easier than punching the A
    >> >> number on
    >> >> the computer at primary inspection to verify the stamp is genuine.
    >> >> As it happens, tourists clear immigration faster than lawful
    >> >> residents.
    >> >> Just to give you an idea, there are hundreds of people in the
    >> >> secondary
    >> >> (first come, first served) are at JFK and you are not guarenteed to
    >> >> make a
    >> >> connection once in that area.
    >> >> Who had that genious idea?!
    >> > So you think that some red ink smeared in a foreign passport is more
    >> > secure than a laser I-551 card?
    >> > So what if it's a real Alien number? How do they verify that the
    >> > person
    >> > is the real bearer of the document. You're going to rely on a 3rd
    >> > world
    >> > hand written passport and photo to verify that the bearer is the
    >> > same
    >> > person? Kids have fraudulently obtained passports from some of these
    >> > countries in order to sign up for little league.
    >> > I'm sure they have the procedure in place due to problems they were
    >> > experiencing.
    >> > --
    >> > Posted via http://britishexpats.com
    > Buddy, you don't even have a biometric passport. You have a machine
    > readable passport (MRP). Just because is has >>>>> at the bottom
    > doesn't make it biometric.
    > In 1996, Malaysia became the only country in the world to issue
    > biometric passports. There is a chip in the back cover that contains
    > information including the photo. In January, they added fingerprints to
    > a 2nd generation chip.
    > The deadline for biometric visa waiver passports was pushed back for at
    > least a year. So you don't have one. Don't be ashamed. Many amateurs
    > such as yourself don't know the difference between an MRP and a
    > biometric passport.
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com

crg

If you knew all of this, why did you claim that you had an "advanced passport"? What is so advanced about it? Don't change your theory now.

CIS has several databases. Did you ever consider that maybe they didn't want the primary officer to slow down the line in order to go into all of them? Maybe that's why you got sent to secondary.

Also, you claimed that there were hundreds of people waiting for secondary inspection in NYC. I've flown through all of those terminals. Which secondary area can hold more than 60-70 people? Don't you think that you were exagerating a bit?

CIS is trying to eliminate the use of the ADIT stamp for a reason. New immigrants are getting MRIVs for a reason. That reason is the stamp sucks. You shouldn't be surprised by the extra scrutiny.

crg

There are additional problems with what you've been saying.

"the whole point of biometric passports is that the photo can be displayed on the monitor rather than viewed from the passport whose lamination may cause distortion"

I don't know where you got the "lamination may cause distortion" concept. Biometric passports are to prevent people from switching the photo on the passport with their own, or being an imposter Many new passports use an integrated photo and no lamination at all.

"would allow the officer to identify the passenger just by
pulling the record using either an A# or SSN."

Since when does a SSN (which is for paying taxes etc) have anything to do with immigration? We all know how secure a social security card is. New immigrants get their SSN *after* they enter.

I'm sure they want to slow down the Citizen/LPR line at the POE to verify your ADIT stamp. That line is for simple and fast clearance of properly documented passengers. The laser I-551 has a photo and fingerprint on it, and information encoded in the stripe on the back. It's a little better than a stamp.

Dan

I mentioned SSN just as an example of an easy database lookup index. For the
other part, I need to dig up the documents regarding the secure travel
documents.

It specifically says that even when the photo is printed directly on the
passport, some security features on the lamination layer may prevent getting
all the fine details of the facial features.

The biggest problems with photos in passports is that counterfeiters found
ways to *chemically* alter photos and produce real-fake passports. Here is
how:

Some chemicals fade and some appear with time due to some chemical process
(let's not get too technical.) That will cause the original image to fade
and a new one to appear on the same paper.

This is how some criminals used very easily passports legitimately issued to
"innocent" people who got large sums of money.

I actually learned that in a talk about encryption and data security given
by one of the most renowned experts in the matter in the world (one of those
who invented RSA.)

Now, for the actual practice: even in the fast line, data has to be entered.
It is usually scanned, but sometimes has to be punched in.

LPR's, regardless of their documentation type have to use the "fast" line.
The time that it takes the officer to enter into the computer the reason for
referral to secondary (ADIT stamp without ARC), escort the passenger into
secondary, enter the docs into an envelope and walk back to his/her station
seems to be far longer than just punching in an A# and compare the photo.

Where does your theory about slowing the line down comes from?

As for the use of the word "advanced", I just didn't want to get too
technical. Besides, if a MRP is good enough for now to determine the
identity of a tourist, it should be good enough to determine the identity of
an LPR. Don't you think?

On a personal note, I agree the stamp sucks, but it is also unacceptable to
wait such a long time for a card to be manufactured. And I do see your
point, but trust me, it feels odd sitting in a stinky side room with
screaming children and people in shackles, waiting for your name to be
called, not knowing whether you are going to make your connection home while
visitors just get swiped in.

"crg14624" <member20421@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected] m...
    > > If you knew all of this, why did you claim that you had an
    > > "advanced passport"? What is so advanced about it? Don't change
    > > your theory now.
    > >
    > > CIS has several databases. Did you ever consider that maybe they
    > > didn't want the primary officer to slow down the line in order to go
    > > into all of them? Maybe that's why you got sent to secondary.
    > >
    > > Also, you claimed that there were hundreds of people waiting for
    > > secondary inspection in NYC. I've flown through all of those
    > > terminals. Which secondary area can hold more than 60-70 people?
    > > Don't you think that you were exagerating a bit?
    > >
    > > CIS is trying to eliminate the use of the ADIT stamp for a reason.
    > > New immigrants are getting MRIVs for a reason. That reason is the
    > > stamp sucks. You shouldn't be surprised by the extra scrutiny.
    > There are additional problems with what you've been saying.
    > "the whole point of biometric passports is that the photo can be
    > displayed on the monitor rather than viewed from the passport whose
    > lamination may cause distortion"
    > I don't know where you got the "lamination may cause distortion"
    > concept. Biometric passports are to prevent people from switching the
    > photo on the passport with their own, or being an imposter Many new
    > passports use an integrated photo and no lamination at all.
    > "would allow the officer to identify the passenger just by
    > pulling the record using either an A# or SSN."
    > Since when does a SSN (which is for paying taxes etc) have anything to
    > do with immigration? We all know how secure a social security card is.
    > New immigrants get their SSN *after* they enter.
    > I'm sure they want to slow down the Citizen/LPR line at the POE to
    > verify your ADIT stamp. That line is for simple and fast clearance of
    > properly documented passengers. The laser I-551 has a photo and
    > fingerprint on it, and information encoded in the stripe on the back.
    > It's a little better than a stamp.
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com

crg

"Besides, if a MRP is good enough for now to determine the
identity of a tourist, it should be good enough to determine the identity of
an LPR. Don't you think?"

Yes, and no. I could somewhat agree to that in theory. If the bearer could just claim tourist, why the extra scrutiny. However, tourists are subject to US VISIT fingerprinting and photo. LPRs aren't.

"it is also unacceptable to wait such a long time for a card to be manufactured."

They could speed up the issuance process, but they always have fraudulent applications to sift through. That takes time. Also, quick and easy replacement can encourage people to sell their card and then apply for a new one every couple months.

"Where does your theory about slowing the line down comes from?"

LPRs can use either lane, but obviously the fast lane is better. You're also assuming that every primary station and officer has access to this system. According to senate testimony, (http://finance.senate.gov/hearings/t...1003ahtest.pdf)
it was only at 40 ports as of Sept'03 and they hoped to roll it out within a year. Hopefully, they'll get to a point that people don't have to go in every time. I'm sure they don't want to clutter their office with bona fide LPRs any more than they want to be there. Evidently, they aren't there yet. Hopefully your card comes soon.

Dan

    > They could speed up the issuance process, but they always have
    > fraudulent applications to sift through. That takes time. Also, quick
    > and easy replacement can encourage people to sell their card and then
    > apply for a new one every couple months.

Agreed. But the very same concerns also apply to US passports (potentially
to a much larger extent.)

IMHO the production of both can be consolidated. The only variation is in
the verification of eligibility that is in fact easier for LPR's as it can
be done electronically. The identity verification process should be
identical.

"crg14624" <member20421@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected] m...
    >> I mentioned SSN just as an example of an easy database lookup index.
    >> For the
    >> other part, I need to dig up the documents regarding the secure travel
    >> documents.
    >> It specifically says that even when the photo is printed directly on
    >> the
    >> passport, some security features on the lamination layer may prevent
    >> getting
    >> all the fine details of the facial features.
    >> The biggest problems with photos in passports is that counterfeiters
    >> found
    >> ways to *chemically* alter photos and produce real-fake passports.
    >> Here is
    >> how:
    >> Some chemicals fade and some appear with time due to some chemical
    >> process
    >> (let's not get too technical.) That will cause the original image to
    >> fade
    >> and a new one to appear on the same paper.
    >> This is how some criminals used very easily passports legitimately
    >> issued to
    >> "innocent" people who got large sums of money.
    >> I actually learned that in a talk about encryption and data security
    >> given
    >> by one of the most renowned experts in the matter in the world (one of
    >> those
    >> who invented RSA.)
    >> Now, for the actual practice: even in the fast line, data has to be
    >> entered.
    >> It is usually scanned, but sometimes has to be punched in.
    >> LPR's, regardless of their documentation type have to use the
    >> "fast" line.
    >> The time that it takes the officer to enter into the computer the
    >> reason for
    >> referral to secondary (ADIT stamp without ARC), escort the
    >> passenger into
    >> secondary, enter the docs into an envelope and walk back to
    >> his/her station
    >> seems to be far longer than just punching in an A# and compare
    >> the photo.
    >> Where does your theory about slowing the line down comes from?
    >> As for the use of the word "advanced", I just didn't want to get too
    >> technical. Besides, if a MRP is good enough for now to determine the
    >> identity of a tourist, it should be good enough to determine the
    >> identity of
    >> an LPR. Don't you think?
    >> On a personal note, I agree the stamp sucks, but it is also
    >> unacceptable to
    >> wait such a long time for a card to be manufactured. And I do see
    >> your
    >> point, but trust me, it feels odd sitting in a stinky side room with
    >> screaming children and people in shackles, waiting for your name to be
    >> called, not knowing whether you are going to make your connection home
    >> while
    >> visitors just get swiped in.
    >> "crg14624" <member20421@british_expats.com> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected] m...
    >> > > If you knew all of this, why did you claim that you had an
    >> > > "advanced passport"? What is so advanced about it? Don't change
    >> > > your theory now.
    >> > >
    >> > > CIS has several databases. Did you ever consider that maybe they
    >> > > didn't want the primary officer to slow down the line in order to
    >> > > go
    >> > > into all of them? Maybe that's why you got sent to secondary.
    >> > >
    >> > > Also, you claimed that there were hundreds of people waiting for
    >> > > secondary inspection in NYC. I've flown through all of those
    >> > > terminals. Which secondary area can hold more than 60-70 people?
    >> > > Don't you think that you were exagerating a bit?
    >> > >
    >> > > CIS is trying to eliminate the use of the ADIT stamp for a reason.
    >> > > New immigrants are getting MRIVs for a reason. That reason is the
    >> > > stamp sucks. You shouldn't be surprised by the extra scrutiny.
    >> > There are additional problems with what you've been saying.
    >> > "the whole point of biometric passports is that the photo can be
    >> > displayed on the monitor rather than viewed from the passport whose
    >> > lamination may cause distortion"
    >> > I don't know where you got the "lamination may cause distortion"
    >> > concept. Biometric passports are to prevent people from switching
    >> > the
    >> > photo on the passport with their own, or being an imposter Many new
    >> > passports use an integrated photo and no lamination at all.
    >> > "would allow the officer to identify the passenger just by
    >> > pulling the record using either an A# or SSN."
    >> > Since when does a SSN (which is for paying taxes etc) have anything
    >> > to
    >> > do with immigration? We all know how secure a social security card
    >> > is.
    >> > New immigrants get their SSN *after* they enter.
    >> > I'm sure they want to slow down the Citizen/LPR line at the POE to
    >> > verify your ADIT stamp. That line is for simple and fast clearance
    >> > of
    >> > properly documented passengers. The laser I-551 has a photo and
    >> > fingerprint on it, and information encoded in the stripe on the
    >> > back.
    >> > It's a little better than a stamp.
    >> > --
    >> > Posted via http://britishexpats.com
    > "Besides, if a MRP is good enough for now to determine the
    > identity of a tourist, it should be good enough to determine the
    > identity of
    > an LPR. Don't you think?"
    > Yes, and no. I could somewhat agree to that in theory. If the bearer
    > could just claim tourist, why the extra scrutiny. However, tourists are
    > subject to US VISIT fingerprinting and photo. LPRs aren't.
    > "it is also unacceptable to wait such a long time for a card to be
    > manufactured."
    > They could speed up the issuance process, but they always have
    > fraudulent applications to sift through. That takes time. Also, quick
    > and easy replacement can encourage people to sell their card and then
    > apply for a new one every couple months.
    > "Where does your theory about slowing the line down comes from?"
    > LPRs can use either lane, but obviously the fast lane is better. You're
    > also assuming that every primary station and officer has access to this
    > system. According to senate testimony, (http://finance.senate.gov/hear-
    > ings/testimony/2003test/091003ahtest.pdf)
    > it was only at 40 ports as of Sept'03 and they hoped to roll it out
    > within a year. Hopefully, they'll get to a point that people don't have
    > to go in every time. I'm sure they don't want to clutter their office
    > with bona fide LPRs any more than they want to be there. Evidently,
    > they aren't there yet. Hopefully your card comes soon.
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com