Tim Keating

On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 03:58:36 -0400, alexy
wrote:

    >Tim Keating wrote:
    >>On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 01:44:53 -0400, alexy
    >>wrote:
    >>>Tim Keating wrote:
    >>>>On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 23:13:10 -0500, "John Jacobson"
    >>>>posing with a fake ID of "Thus Spake Zarathustra"
    >>>>wrote:
    >>>>>"Tim Keating" wrote in message
    >>>>>news:q3l1ruorkasifeopuvk-
    >>>>>[email protected]    ...
    >>>>>> On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 22:31:45 -0500, "John Jacobson"
    >>>>>> posing with a fake ID of "Thus Spake Zarathustra"
    >>>>>> wrote:
    >>>>>> >"Tim Keating" wrote in message
    >>>>>> >news:vph1ruo9ud7ot270-
    >>>>>> >[email protected]    ...
    >>>>>> >> On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:12:28 -0500, "John Jacobson"
    >>>>>> >> posing with a fake ID of "Thus Spake Zarathustra"
    >>>>>> >> wrote:
    >>>>>> >>
    >>>>>> >> >"Tim Keating" wrote in message
    >>>>>> >> >news711rucf3vivf-
    >>>>>> >> >[email protected]    ...
    >>>>>> >> >> On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:49:00 -0400, alexy
    >>>>>> >> >> wrote:
    >>>>>> >> >>
    >>>>>> >> >> >Tim Keating wrote:
    >>>>>> >> >> >
    >>>>>> >> >> >
    >>>>>> >> >> >>However.. Somewhere between 600,000 to 750,000 of H1-B's have
    >>>>>recently
    >>>>>> >> >> >>come from a country which around 7 million computers.
    >>>>>> >> >> >>
    >>>>>> >> >> >> So were did they get the flood of so-called experts??
    >>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    >>>>>> >> >> >> Answer... They didn't, They're not experts.
    >>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    >>>>>> >> >> >> Most of them can't even be classified as novices.
    >>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    >>>>JJ.. remember these words.. Look below..
    >>>>>> >> >> >>
    >>>>>> >> >> >>
    >>>>>> >> >> >>http://www.-
    >>>>>> >> >> >>socio.demon.co.uk/magazine/7/venky.html
    >>>>>> >> >> >> (1.1 computers per 1000.. ~1.3 million computers, ~Jul 99).
    >>>>>> >> >> >>
    >>>>>> >> >> >>http://www.learnon.org-
    >>>>>> >> >> >>/papers/India.pdf
    >>>>>> >> >> >>(3 million computers for a billion+ people, 2000.)
    >>>>>> >> >> >>
    >>>>>> >> >> >>http://www.time.com/time/asia/digital/magazine/0,9754,107313,0-
    >>>>>> >> >> >>0.html
    >>>>>> >> >> >>(less than 5 million computers for a billion+ people. apr30,
    >>Here is a lsimple test for you, Alex Yielding.
    >> Given these URL data points stated above and assuming a minmum 30
    >> to 1 user to developer ratio.
    >> Calculate the number of Indian computer experts with ten years of
    >> full time industry experience? How about five years?
    >Neither of those can be determined with the data given. But I'll play
    >along, and state other assumptions needed to calculate such a number.
    >Assume the 1.3 million computers for July '99 was constant for the
    >last ten years.

Obviously NOT..

(5 mil, apr'01 -> 3 mil, 00-> 1.3 mil Jul'99 -> ?? Oct'97 -> Oct'92)
Place it at 1/2 mill for Oct 97... maybe 1/8 mil for Oct'02


But, I'll use your numbers.

    >That means that at a 30-to-1 user to developer ratio for computer use,
    >that there were 41,935 computers in use by developers.
    >Assume a 10% turnover rate for developers.
    >Assume no re-entrants.
    >Assume the industry started 20 years ago, and built from 0 to the 1.3
    >million computer level linearly over 10 years.
    >Plus LOTS of other assumptions that need to be made for such a
    >calculation, but that I will not confuse you with, since you think
    >this is a simple test.
    >That would give you 14,622 with ten+ years of experience and 22,286
    >with 5+ years' experience.

So how does a country with (let's be generous) ~30,000 computer
experts with 5 yrs or more of work experience, somehow manage to fill
600,000 to 750,000 of H1-B's ("best and brightest") visas?

Thru deceit? A little fraud? How about a whole lot of fraud?

(All violations of the law.. and deportable offences)

Now place yourself in H1-B employer shoes, how much additional control
could one exert, if he knew that 95% of them where here illegally?

Enough to get them to sit on the bench for months on end?
Enough to pay them substandard wages?
Enough to force them to work day and night?
Enough to rip them off outright?

Tim Keating

On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:01:35 GMT, Ingo Pakleppa
wrote:

    >On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:54:43 -0700, Tim Keating wrote:
    >> On 18 Oct 2002 09:14:57 -0700, [email protected] (Kamal R. Prasad)
    >> wrote:
    >>>> Learn how the H-1B technical visa program is costing American jobs
    >>>it is costing American jobs because it costs more to employ an American
    >>>worker.
    >>>IEEE has a survey posted on its website which shows that unemployment
    >>>fell and the no. of jobs also fell (indicating that the jobs have been
    >>>moved to overseas locations). You sure can expect this in times of
    >>>recession when companies are trying to save pennies whereever possible.
    >>>> and
    >>>> undercutting your wages.
    >>>the H1-B visa is restrictive and that forces engineers to accept lower
    >>>wages in return for a green card. the fact that an engineer is on an
    >>>H1-B does not mean that he is less-qualified or that he has a vested
    >>>interest in driving down labor costs. regards
    >> However.. Somewhere between 600,000 to 750,000 of H1-B's have recently
    >> come from a country which around 7 million computers.
    >Where do you get your numbers? The number you mention here is the
    >approximately the total number of H-1Bs admitted in the last ten years
    >from the whole world.
    >Which country are you referring to?

India..

We have over a million plus H1-B's+..

Most of the data has comes from the INS, which is known for sparse
press announcements and publications.. (Takes a lot digging to find
data points by alternate methods, INS staffing/ budget estimates, DOL
budget projections, Retraining account balance, etc..)

Initially the last INS demographic announced was back in 00, which had
india using ~47.5% of all H1-B's visas. But the ratio has since
reported too be as high as 74%.

Hence the range as stated..

---------

H1-B import levels, based on federal fiscal year, Oct 1 - Sep 30.
Initial H1-B visa length 3 years, + 3 year extension, +1 year if GC
application pending. (Total length 7 years).

FY 1997, 65,000 (H1-B cap first reached)
FY 1998, 65,000

HR 4328, Public law 105-266 raises quota to 115,000 for FY 99, 00..
But, INS can't count, and let's in more workers than allowed !

FY 1999, 138,385
FY 2000, 149,850

SB 2045, Public law 106-313 raises quota to 195,000 for FY 01, 02,
and 03. But, It also adds a number of uncounted/uncapped categories.
Also added 1 year visa extension, if GC application pending..
I.E. No effective H1-B visa limits. (tech crash ensues)..

FY 2001, 357,000+
FY 2002, 159,000*4/3 = 212,000? (Year end projection)

Left over from FY 1996 & 95 == ~50,000*2

Tim Keating

On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:02:41 GMT, Ingo Pakleppa
wrote:

    >On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:39:45 -0700, No One wrote:
    >> Foreigners are not required to register with Selective Service; so, why
    >> should they have access to our job market?
    >That's not true; foreigners are required to register with Selective
    >Service. There is an exception for non-immigrants, but both immigrants
    >and undocumented aliens ARE indeed required to register.

But H1-B's come in under form I-129 and are given a I-94 visa card.
(exempt from SSS).. But if that weren't enough, being older than 26
or female would exempt ANY immigrant, legal or otherwise.

From http://www.sss.gov/must.htm

Men who are 26 years old and older are too old to register. Some
requirements are shown below:

ALIENS ** REQUIRED TO REGISTER?


Lawful non-immigrants on visas (e.g., diplomatic and consular
personnel and families, foreign students, tourists with unexpired
visas (Forms I-94, I-95A), or those with Border Crossing Documents
(Forms I-185, I-186, I-444). ***No***

Tim Keating

On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:02:41 GMT, Ingo Pakleppa
wrote:

    >On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:39:45 -0700, No One wrote:
    >> Foreigners are not required to register with Selective Service; so, why
    >> should they have access to our job market?
    >That's not true; foreigners are required to register with Selective
    >Service. There is an exception for non-immigrants, but both immigrants
    >and undocumented aliens ARE indeed required to register.

H1-B's come in under form I-129 and are given a I-94 visa card.
(exempt from SSS).. But if that weren't enough, being older than 26
or female would exempt ANY immigrant, legal or otherwise.

From http://www.sss.gov/must.htm

Men who are 26 years old and older are too old to register. Some
requirements are shown below:

ALIENS ** REQUIRED TO REGISTER?


Lawful non-immigrants on visas (e.g., diplomatic and consular
personnel and families, foreign students, tourists with unexpired
visas (Forms I-94, I-95A), or those with Border Crossing Documents
(Forms I-185, I-186, I-444). ***No***

Ingo Pakleppa

On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 02:56:39 -0700, Tim Keating wrote:

    > On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:01:35 GMT, Ingo Pakleppa
    > wrote:
    >>On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:54:43 -0700, Tim Keating wrote:
    >>> On 18 Oct 2002 09:14:57 -0700, [email protected] (Kamal R. Prasad)
    >>> wrote:
    >>>>> Learn how the H-1B technical visa program is costing American jobs
    >>>>it is costing American jobs because it costs more to employ an
    >>>>American worker.
    >>>>IEEE has a survey posted on its website which shows that unemployment
    >>>>fell and the no. of jobs also fell (indicating that the jobs have been
    >>>>moved to overseas locations). You sure can expect this in times of
    >>>>recession when companies are trying to save pennies whereever
    >>>>possible.
    >>>>> and
    >>>>> undercutting your wages.
    >>>>the H1-B visa is restrictive and that forces engineers to accept lower
    >>>>wages in return for a green card. the fact that an engineer is on an
    >>>>H1-B does not mean that he is less-qualified or that he has a vested
    >>>>interest in driving down labor costs. regards
    >>> However.. Somewhere between 600,000 to 750,000 of H1-B's have recently
    >>> come from a country which around 7 million computers.
    >>Where do you get your numbers? The number you mention here is the
    >>approximately the total number of H-1Bs admitted in the last ten years
    >>from the whole world.
    >>Which country are you referring to?
    > India..
    > We have over a million plus H1-B's+..

The annual quota on H-1Bs has been between 65,000 and 115,000 per year
since the quota was imposed in the early 1990s (the quota was 195,000 for
three years), and in the 2002 fiscal year (October 2001 through September
2002), only about half the quota was used. Since H-1Bs generally cannot
stay longer than six years in the US, you simply have to add up the quotas
for the last six years to find out how many could at most be here. About
800,000 - worldwide.

In reality, many H-1Bs stay in the US for far less than the six years
(those who go for a GC will typically get it in three to four years), and
the quota hasn't always been reached. So my guess is that we currently
have between 300,000 and 400,000 H-1Bs in the country. Nobody knows the
exact number.

    > Most of the data has comes from the INS, which is known for sparse press
    > announcements and publications.. (Takes a lot digging to find data
    > points by alternate methods, INS staffing/ budget estimates, DOL budget
    > projections, Retraining account balance, etc..)
    > Initially the last INS demographic announced was back in 00, which had
    > india using ~47.5% of all H1-B's visas. But the ratio has since
    > reported too be as high as 74%.

44% is the number I am familiar with. I'm sure it depends on exactly which
year you are looking at, but I would be extremely surprised if it was much
higher than that.

    > Hence the range as stated..
    > ---------
    > H1-B import levels, based on federal fiscal year, Oct 1 - Sep 30.
    > Initial H1-B visa length 3 years, + 3 year extension, +1 year if GC
    > application pending. (Total length 7 years).

Actually, the extension if GC application is pending is unlimited, in
one-year increment until INS gets around to adjudicating the case. It only
applies to a small number of H-1Bs, of course (most get their GCs faster).

    > FY 1997, 65,000 (H1-B cap first reached) FY 1998, 65,000
    > HR 4328, Public law 105-266 raises quota to 115,000 for FY 99, 00..
    > But, INS can't count, and let's in more workers than allowed !
    > FY 1999, 138,385
    > FY 2000, 149,850

INS only miscounted in 1999. So I don't think your numbers are accurate.
In the contrary, many H-1B slots were lost in 2000 due to INS processing
delays. These slots were added to the FY 2001 and future years quota.

    > SB 2045, Public law 106-313 raises quota to 195,000 for FY 01, 02,
    > and 03. But, It also adds a number of uncounted/uncapped categories.

The only uncounted categories are:

- H-1Bs who change jobs (because they have already been counted)

- H-1Bs who work for non-profits, schools and universities (which is a
negligible number).

    > Also added 1 year visa extension, if GC application pending.. I.E. No
    > effective H1-B visa limits. (tech crash ensues)..

The one-year extension only applies to people who were already counted in
the past, so it is irrelevant for you. It is also not all that many, most
people get their GCs well before the six years are up (right now, it
typically takes two to three years).

    > FY 2001, 357,000+

I think your number is the total quota, not how many H-1Bs actually came.
I remember that the regular quota for H-1Bs (195k in that year) was barely
reached.

This year was indeed special. In addition to the regular quota, those
slots that had gone unclaimed in previous years because of INS processing
delays were added. But, again, those slots were mostly unused because
there just wasn't enough demand for them. They were carried over to 2002
(where they again went unused, and will now be carried to 2003, etc.)

    > FY 2002, 159,000*4/3 = 212,000? (Year end projection)

What is this 4/3? FY 2002 is over already, and the latest numbers I have
(from around June, three quarters into the fiscal year) indicate that
there were well less than 100,000 H-1Bs requested.

    > Left over from FY 1996 & 95 == ~50,000*2

These left over slots haven't even been touched yet, no H-1Bs have been
admitted under them.

Ingo Pakleppa

On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 05:14:46 -0700, Tim Keating wrote:

    > On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:02:41 GMT, Ingo Pakleppa
    > wrote:
    >>On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:39:45 -0700, No One wrote:
    >>> Foreigners are not required to register with Selective Service; so,
    >>> why should they have access to our job market?
    >>That's not true; foreigners are required to register with Selective
    >>Service. There is an exception for non-immigrants, but both immigrants
    >>and undocumented aliens ARE indeed required to register.
    > H1-B's come in under form I-129 and are given a I-94 visa card. (exempt
    > from SSS).. But if that weren't enough, being older than 26 or female
    > would exempt ANY immigrant, legal or otherwise.

It would also exempt any US citizen...

You are right, H-1Bs are non-immigrants and indeed exempt. But you made a
broad statement that "foreigners" were not required to register. And that
statement was wrong.

In any case, there is an easy solution to this question. The only reason
people get an H-1B is that it takes way too long to get a Green Card -
which does require SS registration. So simply make sure that GC processing
takes a reasonable time again, and the problem goes away.

Tim Keating

On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 14:32:24 GMT, Ingo Pakleppa
wrote:

    >On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 02:56:39 -0700, Tim Keating wrote:
    >> On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:01:35 GMT, Ingo Pakleppa
    >> wrote:
    >>>On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:54:43 -0700, Tim Keating wrote:
    >>>> On 18 Oct 2002 09:14:57 -0700, [email protected] (Kamal R. Prasad)
    >>>> wrote:
    >>>>>> Learn how the H-1B technical visa program is costing American jobs
    >>>>>it is costing American jobs because it costs more to employ an
    >>>>>American worker.
    >>>>>IEEE has a survey posted on its website which shows that unemployment
    >>>>>fell and the no. of jobs also fell (indicating that the jobs have been
    >>>>>moved to overseas locations). You sure can expect this in times of
    >>>>>recession when companies are trying to save pennies whereever
    >>>>>possible.
    >>>>>> and
    >>>>>> undercutting your wages.
    >>>>>the H1-B visa is restrictive and that forces engineers to accept lower
    >>>>>wages in return for a green card. the fact that an engineer is on an
    >>>>>H1-B does not mean that he is less-qualified or that he has a vested
    >>>>>interest in driving down labor costs. regards
    >>>> However.. Somewhere between 600,000 to 750,000 of H1-B's have recently
    >>>> come from a country which around 7 million computers.
    >>>Where do you get your numbers? The number you mention here is the
    >>>approximately the total number of H-1Bs admitted in the last ten years
    >>>from the whole world.
    >>>Which country are you referring to?
    >> India..
    >> We have over a million plus H1-B's+..
    >The annual quota on H-1Bs has been between 65,000 and 115,000 per year
    >since the quota was imposed in the early 1990s (the quota was 195,000 for

The H1-B program didn't exist before the 1990's.. Prior to 1991 it was
known as H-1... and required a minimum salary of 60K/yr.

    >three years), and in the 2002 fiscal year (October 2001 through September

Starting with FY 2001..
If you look below you'll see the Public law cite..

    >2002), only about half the quota was used. Since H-1Bs generally cannot

That remains to be seen as publish figures aren't out yet.. and The
uncounted categories number as much as the capped/counted categories.

    >stay longer than six years in the US, you simply have to add up the quotas
    >for the last six years to find out how many could at most be here. About
    >800,000 - worldwide.

See. below.. Try seven years..

    >In reality, many H-1Bs stay in the US for far less than the six years
    >(those who go for a GC will typically get it in three to four years), and
    >the quota hasn't always been reached. So my guess is that we currently
    >have between 300,000 and 400,000 H-1Bs in the country. Nobody knows the
    >exact number.

Since we don't have any exit requirements, the INS can't tell who left
or who stayed.

    >> Most of the data has comes from the INS, which is known for sparse press
    >> announcements and publications.. (Takes a lot digging to find data
    >> points by alternate methods, INS staffing/ budget estimates, DOL budget
    >> projections, Retraining account balance, etc..)
    >> Initially the last INS demographic announced was back in 00, which had
    >> india using ~47.5% of all H1-B's visas. But the ratio has since
    >> reported too be as high as 74%.
    >44% is the number I am familiar with. I'm sure it depends on exactly which
    >year you are looking at, but I would be extremely surprised if it was much
    >higher than that.

Actually started out 45.9% to 49.5% for FY 98.. with 27.8% specified
as other countries. (Based on random sample of 3%, errors often cause
visa's to be classified in the other category.)

For Fy 00, it's 48.5% with 16.1% specified in the other category.

    >> Hence the range as stated..
    >> ---------
    >> H1-B import levels, based on federal fiscal year, Oct 1 - Sep 30.
    >> Initial H1-B visa length 3 years, + 3 year extension, +1 year if GC
    >> application pending. (Total length 7 years).
    >Actually, the extension if GC application is pending is unlimited, in
    >one-year increment until INS gets around to adjudicating the case. It only
    >applies to a small number of H-1Bs, of course (most get their GCs faster).

None the less, it exists and gives an AUTOMATIC one year extension,
regardless if GC is approved or rejected..

    >> FY 1997, 65,000 (H1-B cap first reached) FY 1998, 65,000
    >> HR 4328, Public law 105-266 raises quota to 115,000 for FY 99, 00..
    >> But, INS can't count, and let's in more workers than allowed !
    >> FY 1999, 138,385
    >> FY 2000, 149,850
    >INS only miscounted in 1999. So I don't think your numbers are accurate.
    >In the contrary, many H-1B slots were lost in 2000 due to INS processing
    >delays. These slots were added to the FY 2001 and future years quota.
    >> SB 2045, Public law 106-313 raises quota to 195,000 for FY 01, 02,
    >> and 03. But, It also adds a number of uncounted/uncapped categories.
    >The only uncounted categories are:
    >- H-1Bs who change jobs (because they have already been counted)
    >- H-1Bs who work for non-profits, schools and universities (which is a
    > negligible number).

I suggest you check out www.zazona.com, the immigration lawyers know
all about the loopholes.. This includes setting up non-profit body
shops as proxies, which lend out H1-B's to for profit body shops.

On top of that, the uncounted categories don't even pay the 1,000$
per visa fee for the US tech worker retraining fund.. I.E. Total
fees to import a tech worker less than 250$. (Less than the airline
ticket)..

    >> Also added 1 year visa extension, if GC application pending.. I.E. No
    >> effective H1-B visa limits. (tech crash ensues)..
    >The one-year extension only applies to people who were already counted in
    >the past, so it is irrelevant for you. It is also not all that many, most
    >people get their GCs well before the six years are up (right now, it
    >typically takes two to three years).
    >> FY 2001, 357,000+
    >I think your number is the total quota, not how many H-1Bs actually came.
    >I remember that the regular quota for H-1Bs (195k in that year) was barely
    >reached.

No.. the uncounted categories numbered quite a bit.. 1,000$ per head
is incentive enough to get them classified as uncounted.

    >This year was indeed special. In addition to the regular quota, those
    >slots that had gone unclaimed in previous years because of INS processing
    >delays were added. But, again, those slots were mostly unused because
    >there just wasn't enough demand for them. They were carried over to 2002
    >(where they again went unused, and will now be carried to 2003, etc.)
    >> FY 2002, 159,000*4/3 = 212,000? (Year end projection)
    >What is this 4/3? FY 2002 is over already, and the latest numbers I have
    >(from around June, three quarters into the fiscal year) indicate that
    >there were well less than 100,000 H-1Bs requested.

Time lag.. The Fed's are real slow.. we'll be lucky to see Q4 numbers
before Dec..

    >> Left over from FY 1996 & 95 == ~50,000*2
    >These left over slots haven't even been touched yet, no H-1Bs have been
    >admitted under them.

No.. the H1-B program dates back to 91.. Averaging around 50K just
before maxing out quotas.. 95's seven year run should just be running
out at the end of this year..

Tim Keating

On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 14:35:39 GMT, Ingo Pakleppa
wrote:

    >On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 05:14:46 -0700, Tim Keating wrote:
    >> On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:02:41 GMT, Ingo Pakleppa
    >> wrote:
    >>>On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:39:45 -0700, No One wrote:
    >>>> Foreigners are not required to register with Selective Service; so,
    >>>> why should they have access to our job market?
    >>>That's not true; foreigners are required to register with Selective
    >>>Service. There is an exception for non-immigrants, but both immigrants
    >>>and undocumented aliens ARE indeed required to register.
    >> H1-B's come in under form I-129 and are given a I-94 visa card. (exempt
    >> from SSS).. But if that weren't enough, being older than 26 or female
    >> would exempt ANY immigrant, legal or otherwise.
    >It would also exempt any US citizen...

Except a US citizen would be liable for breaking the law.


    >You are right, H-1Bs are non-immigrants and indeed exempt. But you made a
    >broad statement that "foreigners" were not required to register. And that
    >statement was wrong.

If you look at the quotation levels you'll find that, "No One wrote:"
that statement.

    >In any case, there is an easy solution to this question. The only reason
    >people get an H-1B is that it takes way too long to get a Green Card -
    >which does require SS registration. So simply make sure that GC processing
    >takes a reasonable time again, and the problem goes away.

Most applicants for GC will receive their GC's well past the age(26)
for SSS registration.

Thus Spake Zarathustra

Why SHOULD they be required to register with the selective service?

"Tim Keating" wrote in message
news:i4j2ru08gf6j8l8eip29ke4g-
[email protected]...
    > On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:02:41 GMT, Ingo Pakleppa
    > wrote:
    > >On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:39:45 -0700, No One wrote:
    > >
    > >> Foreigners are not required to register with Selective Service; so, why
    > >> should they have access to our job market?
    > >
    > >That's not true; foreigners are required to register with Selective
    > >Service. There is an exception for non-immigrants, but both immigrants
    > >and undocumented aliens ARE indeed required to register.
    > H1-B's come in under form I-129 and are given a I-94 visa card.
    > (exempt from SSS).. But if that weren't enough, being older than 26
    > or female would exempt ANY immigrant, legal or otherwise.
    > From http://www.sss.gov/must.htm
    > Men who are 26 years old and older are too old to register. Some
    > requirements are shown below:
    > ALIENS ** REQUIRED TO REGISTER?
    > Lawful non-immigrants on visas (e.g., diplomatic and consular
    > personnel and families, foreign students, tourists with unexpired
    > visas (Forms I-94, I-95A), or those with Border Crossing Documents
    > (Forms I-185, I-186, I-444). ***No***

Thus Spake Zarathustra

"Tim Keating" wrote in message
news:mar2rucphhphnh6dr9ip1lfm-
[email protected]...
    > On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 14:32:24 GMT, Ingo Pakleppa
    > wrote:
    > >In reality, many H-1Bs stay in the US for far less than the six years
    > >(those who go for a GC will typically get it in three to four years), and
    > >the quota hasn't always been reached. So my guess is that we currently
    > >have between 300,000 and 400,000 H-1Bs in the country. Nobody knows the
    > >exact number.
    > Since we don't have any exit requirements, the INS can't tell who left
    > or who stayed.

But you can?

Thus Spake Zarathustra

"Tim Keating" wrote in message
news:1ls2rusn04boun2kl8rf0k9f-
[email protected]...
    > On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 14:35:39 GMT, Ingo Pakleppa
    > wrote:
    > >It would also exempt any US citizen...
    > Except a US citizen would be liable for breaking the law.

Do you even know what the word "exempt" means?

Thus Spake Zarathustra

You know one thing that is really naive about Tim's calculations is that he
is conveniently forgetting that many Indian IT firms offer 24x7 development,
with three shifts of 8 hours each. This means that each computer used for
development in any such firm is supporting full-time experience for three
developers. He is also naively assuming that only one thirtieth or so of the
total number of computers in India are used for development. That too is
grossly naive, as the fact is that in most third-world countries, businesses
tend to do things the old fashioned way, without computers. Thus, a much
higher pecentage of computer use in third-world countries are being used by
developers than by others.

Even if you assume Keating's out-of-his-ass ratio of 30 to 1, since it is
possible for 5 million PCs to support up to 15 million full-time PC users, you
could still get 500,000 full-time developers at any one time.

Of course the ratio is more likely to be more like 3 to 1 in a third-world
country like India, so you could in theory have up to 5 million full-time
developers at any one point in time.

Note that this is at any one point in time, not overall. Since people leave
the system for other countries after a few years of experience, you would
actually get more than a simple ratio calculation would get you.

The one known fact is that Tim Keating has no way to know what the figure
is, yet proclaims loudly that he does know it.

Tim Keating

On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 11:22:16 -0500, "John Jacobson"
posing with a fake ID of "Thus Spake Zarathustra"
wrote:

    >"Tim Keating" wrote in message
    >news:1ls2rusn04boun2kl8rf0k9-
    >[email protected]    ...
    >> On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 14:35:39 GMT, Ingo Pakleppa
    >> wrote:
    >> >It would also exempt any US citizen...
    >> Except a US citizen would be liable for breaking the law.

I should used "liable for having BROKEN the LAW".. Both Criminal and
civil penalties apply.


from http://www.sss.gov/FSbenefits.htm

"Registration is the law. A man who fails to register may, if
prosecuted and convicted, face a fine of up to $250,000 and/or a
prison term of up to five years. "

I suggest you actually read the text on the link that was supplied..
Here is again so you won't have to overtax your brain cells.


From http://www.sss.gov/must.htm

"Almost all male U.S. citizens regardless of where they live, and male
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
immigrant aliens residing in the U.S., are required to be registered
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
with Selective Service if they are at least 18 years old but are not
yet 26 years old."


This includes both US citizens and Green card holders living abroad.


    > Do you even know what the word "exempt" means?

Exempt from what?

Their are no waivers from signing up for SSS, except actually
serving in military or a military training program.

Tim Keating

On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 11:17:01 -0500, "John Jacobson"
posing with a fake ID of "Thus Spake Zarathustra"
wrote:

    >Why SHOULD they be required to register with the selective service?

They aren't..

    >"Tim Keating" wrote in message
    >news:i4j2ru08gf6j8l8eip29ke4-
    >[email protected]    ...
    >> On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:02:41 GMT, Ingo Pakleppa
    >> wrote:
    >> >On Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:39:45 -0700, No One wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> Foreigners are not required to register with Selective Service; so, why
    >> >> should they have access to our job market?
    >> >
    >> >That's not true; foreigners are required to register with Selective
    >> >Service. There is an exception for non-immigrants, but both immigrants
    >> >and undocumented aliens ARE indeed required to register.
    >> H1-B's come in under form I-129 and are given a I-94 visa card.
    >> (exempt from SSS).. But if that weren't enough, being older than 26
    >> or female would exempt ANY immigrant, legal or otherwise.
    >> From http://www.sss.gov/must.htm
    >> Men who are 26 years old and older are too old to register. Some
    >> requirements are shown below:
    >> ALIENS ** REQUIRED TO REGISTER?

....................................Notice the '?' ........^^

    >> Lawful non-immigrants on visas (e.g., diplomatic and consular
    >> personnel and families, foreign students, tourists with unexpired
    >> visas (Forms I-94, I-95A), or those with Border Crossing Documents
    >> (Forms I-185, I-186, I-444). ***No***

The answer is ..........................^^^^^^^

If actually viewed the link supplied you might have learned
something..

Thus Spake Zarathustra

"Tim Keating" wrote in message
news:5m23ru42pjn4jcepskau1fhr-
[email protected]...
    > On Sat, 19 Oct 2002 11:17:01 -0500, "John Jacobson"
    > posing with a fake ID of "Thus Spake Zarathustra"
    > wrote:
    > >Why SHOULD they be required to register with the selective service?
    > They aren't..

You didn't answer the question.