Re: Look at the time!
 

But if you always take all your sick days in a year you never accumulate any.
What happens if one year, you get really sick and need to take, say, a month (or even six months) off? Your sick pay will run out after 10 days - how will you survive then?

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This is exactly my point......and why bloody call it sick days if you know full well people will take all of it each year regardless ? How can you measure the fitness of your staff and if anyone genuinely goes sick for stress from work compared to the lazy arses who take their full allowance of sickies .......does someone who takes just 1 day sick out of their 10 days allowance get looked upon by anyone who takes all their 10 days differently....as in......come on mate you make the rest of us look stupid.......take some more sickies sort of thing.

Unless someone can explain this to me, Australia will forever be thought of as workshy by me if no-one else.

Now...queue the people who view my view as a bit too right wing.

Any HR types on here can explain this please and how you measure staff well being ?

I had an exact example....lady I employed went on a baby drive to get pregnant.....needed to go for special IVF treatment for 2 days...she was not sick...... Is this sick leave ?.....if so why ?. What is the difference between that two day IVF and me deciding I need to go on a 2 day golf improvement course....neither of us are sick and none of it benefits our work. I upheld she took the two days as holiday and so did my Australian boss. On the other hand, if she became sick from the treatment and could not work....then its sick leave. The IVF treatment or my golf course example are both things planned and avoidable....not so with genuine sickness.

If it's not IVF it could have been.... err...... hairdressing appointment ???

Lastly - I did add that I hoped her treatment went well and prayed for her....and she did eventually get pregnant. Had it been treatment for, say, an ectopic pregnancy then yes....sick leave.

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You found it weird....now you don't, so I guess you understand how it works.
Please explain for us simpletons!

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Long Service Leave.... Holiday Entitlements.... Beyond that the Dole .... Or emergency sickness Benefit from the Government after 6 weeks without pay. If one has equity in their Mortgage they can access this in emergencies.

I believe there are certain illnesses that no employer has the right to know about, Especially Mental Health issues. If a Doctor provides a medical certificate then that should be enough. Most doctors in Aus, will put 'Medical Condition" on the certificate, whatever the Illness.

One in Five people will suffer from a Mental Health issue over the course of their lives. At that time the last thing they want is the added burden of judgement and stress from their employer.



Edit....

Whoops and nice update Hutch ;)

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I reckon you will think about this issue in 10 years and not believe you were stupid enough to have posted it.

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A hospital visit - golf. yes, just the same.

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I think people should be 'measured' on their fitness for their role. How many sick days they take is up to them. I like the way Australian corporations treat their staff. In some ways, it is pretty much the same deal/attitude I got in Europe - even for a US firm.

Places where there is high absenteeism and sickness are places where the job is not that great- maybe a factory floor, in a call centre where there is high turnover, or where there is a managerial or work-life balance issue.

Management and the company should be measuring themselves. The staff will find their own level - I've been doing corporate reviews for 10 years and really, I think it is a facade for beancounters. People who underperform tend to leave of their own accord - eventually.

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Great post Hutch. I'm glad you're happy.

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No, its the opposite.


No. Just a bit simplistic.


The difference in Queensland is that a 2 day IVF procedure that cannot reasonably be done after hours is covered by law whereas your golf is not.

Attending medical appointments

Ordinarily, absence from work to attend medical or dental appointments is not covered by sick leave. Employees are not entitled to sick leave when absent from work to seek treatment if the illness or incapacity did not prevent attendance at work and when the treatment could reasonably be obtained outside working hours.

However, employees may be entitled to sick leave, if they are absent from work to obtain treatment because of:

o an illness or incapacity which prevents attendance at work; or
o an incapacity which prevents attendance at work on the day in question.

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Bumping this thread 'cos I never did get an answer to this:

My husband takes his sick whether he is sick or not. His salary is calculated in such a way that he actually pays for his sick days so he sure as hell is going to take them.

How is a salary calculated to cater for employees deliberately taking sick days whether they are sick or not and how is that "fair" to those that don't take it.

Answers please ?

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I dunno but that really p*sses me off as an attitude. One of my ex colleagues had amassed nearly a year's sick leave and what with that and long service leave she basically took the whole year off getting a couple of knee replacements - mind you she was a real user at the best of times and she fought to get the whole lot on comcare because she "claimed" to have injured a knee at work when she told us she actually injured it at home in the garden. Whilst it is an entitlement it is meant as a safety net for those times that you do need it. I can just imagine the bleating of a bloke who needs to take 6 months off to recover from a heart attack (pay the mortgage, feed the family etc) but who has used up all their sick leave as they go and then doesnt have it up their sleeve. Personally I retired with well over a year's sick leave entitlements and a clear conscience - sucker, probably, but not a user.

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I don't get it either; my place budgets 15 days a year for it but I hope not to take it. My first job was at the local council (Middlesbrough, can you see why I ran away? :D ) and people there used to book sick time off, on the basis it was budgeted so they were taking it. Even at 16 I saw something wrong in that.

Long service however, I think you earn. I have a few colleagues currently on mega trips round Oz or Europe, thanks to long service, and I think everybody should have adventures now and then.

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So 2 replies from people in Oz who like me "don't get it".

Say I'm a "user" who takes sickies as they come along and only have 2 sick days left in the year - but bugger I have a major stomach bug that needs me to stay in bed for 2 weeks............what then and please - someone tell me from the employers point of view as well.

If I were paying the wages and knew sickies were taken as sickies and then an employee was off for 2 weeks proper sick.........I know what I'd do.

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:lol: I don't think it matters where we are.

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P'raps not, but isn't it more likely those that have lived and worked in Oz and experienced this scenario would p'raps understand it ?

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Must admit I had never heard of "mental health" days until quite a way into my working life. I actually planned to take one once - never again - I think the karma train hit me bigtime as I began the day with a major headache (which instantly made it a legitimate sick day), the buses were on strike and the car broke down so I had the devil's own job getting the kids to and from school, my headache made me throw up at regular intervals during the day and to cap it off my DH had been away for 6 weeks and I had got used to sleeping diagonally across the bed so when he came home that night, I turned over in bed, fell out and broke two fingers. First and last time for a "mental health day" for me!:rofl:

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It's a pity we are discussing this on Hutch's thread.

Under Australian law if there is less than 3 days of sick leave in a row taken then the employer is not, repeat not, entitled to know the reasons, if the leave is accompanied by a Doctors certificate. Medical Condition is all the employers need to know. There are strict laws to back this up.

An employer is also treading on very shaky ground if they question a doctors certificate, where the leave is greater than 3 days, especially if it comes down to Mental Health issues. Again there are precedents for this with union involvement throughout the country.

The Medical certificate basically is where and when the law starts and stops with this issue.

So Oblineill, if your lady in question that took the time off had produced a Doctors certificate and had of had the nous to take it to a Union, you could have been facing severe court sanctions. As it has been deemed by the supreme court that Employers do no have the right to know the reasons behind a medical certificate. Fines apply, and if a Harassment charge is laid beyond this then employers could even loose a house in court fees and penalties.

Is it right you ask.... well its the law, the medical certificate is where this starts and stops. Employers can actually sue the doctor. Thats never happened as far as I know.

I dont suppose you want to PM me this ladies name and the company she worked for. I would love to have the opportunity to put this case to the secretary of the Australian council of trade Unions. Then the employer and others involved might find out a little about the stress that accompanies IVF..... The hard way.


If your doubting my information, then here is a case study.

There is no way the company you worked for and the people associated in this decision would win this case.

You can ignore this of course, if there was no medical certificate involved.... then I would say thats definitely up to the employer. I'd be amazed if she didnt produce a MC though.



http://www.ahri.com.au/MMSdocuments/...tingsickie.pdf

Reason I'm being so hard on this one. I'm no doctor, nor is the Employer. However I have a hunch that when it comes to IVF that state of mind could well play a part in whether the conception goes ahead or not.

So what bloody right does a employer have to question the MCertificate is the whole crux of this issue.

The other point is that Sickness pay, is a legal requirement in employing full time permanent workers in Australia.

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I think it will happen anywhere that unions are present, like in my first job where it was NALGO. Are unions big in Oz? (I have no idea.) But you make it an Oz problem if you like :rofl: and the fact that it's on a Hutch thread is quite amusing in that respect.

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Some employers do have checks in place to ensure that employees do not abuse the sick pay entitlements.

In the NSW public service, normally you need to provide a medical certificate for more than 2 consecutive sick days. Where an employee takes their full sick leave entitlement in shorter periods (and therefore avoids having to produce a certificate at all) and the employer suspects that the system's being abused they can request that EVERY sick day (even single ones) are accompanied by a medical certificate.

Of course, people that are abusing the system often have a doctor who will write medical certificates for no real reason - but it is a deterrent for some people. :)

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The last election was won and lost over the pending Liberals Workchoice legislation, which stood to strip decades of hard fought entitlements.

So you can actually vote the Australian award system out of place..... It could be very difficult for people to get a mortgage, especially down the lower end of the Job Market, in the event of the Liberals Workchoices getting through, as no job would ever be secure compared to the present.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...14/2684919.htm

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Exactly, so in essence the employee has no one to blame but themselves if sickpay is refused if no Medical Certificate is produced.

Australia Post handles the misuse of Medical Certificate by chronic offenders with one phone call to the Doctor. That seems to stop the Dr Howlongs of this world. Takes a lot to get them to that stage though.

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When he moved from temporary to permanent staff, his salary was calculated in such a way (and I don't know how) that his wages in his hand accounted for taking so many sick days. It isn't at the expense of other people.

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Hi
Not related to Arthur Scargill are you by any chance ? !

Anyway....there was no medical certificate produced but no doubt she could have got one easy. In the end it was the owners decision what to do not mine and the owner/directors were all Australian and being directors had statutory duty to know these things. Also, the lady in question used to work in the healthcare system so of anyone she would know her rights.

I am happy to say she went on to conceive and have a healthy baby.

Anyways.....just to paint a different picture of me.......unfortunately due to the downturn in property she was made redundant. In the end as is so often the case it became a blessing and she moved onwards and upwards to better things. In her redundancy pay, being a wise old accountant I managed to enhance her pay off package quite legally by a few thousand dollars instead of it going to the tax man. For this she was quite pleased and everyone involved in that little company remains of sound friendship.

So....back to my question....I take one day sick each month...no questions asked...but it is a proper sickie......what happens when I need two weeks off 'cos I am sick.....and how is this reflected in my pay compared to those that dont play the game and take these sickies ?

I must be thick as I still have not read a decent answer.

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Depends on how long you had worked for the company.

The general award across Australia is 15 days of sick leave per year, with two weeks accruing each year of untaken sick leave. 5 days is generally allowable without a certificate and 10 days with.

So @ 12 days out of your total each year it would take you 4 years before you would reach a situation where you would be able to get paid in your above scenario.

Any employer can refuse to pay sick leave if there is no accompanying medical certificate, its up to the employee to provide just cause themselves. Which is why it is advisable to always provide a Medical Certificate for days off. Theoretically an employee could phone up with symptoms of a heart attack and the employer need not pay him without an accompanying certificate. Which need only say "medical condition"



Incidently we have people at Aus Post that are rorters and have reguarly taken all of their sickies. The new industry protocol is to pay these people out and get them to provide proof that they are fit for work. If they cannot provide proof Australia Post and it seems other government agencies are now saying they are not fit to return to work. They wont sack them which leaves them in Limbo land. If they resign it takes 13 weeks for them to get unemployment benefits. So the current system does work on rorters albeit at the cost of paying out all of the sickness benefit.

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Firstly... Well done Hutch on the new job and I hope it all goes as well for you.

Secondly... only you could end up with an arguement about Aussie sick pay in your update thread.. !!

Finally... I never realised sick pay was viewed, or treated, in this manner in Oz... sounds bizarre to my UK ears. It probably explains why I haven't taken a single day sick since I started work in Oz.

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Thanks. Job's going well. And I don't mind about the thread ... :)