Why Americans don't like Obamacare
Jan 9th 2011, 3:51 am
#31
I approved this message
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,425
Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
Just to give piss into a hurricane, my thoughts:
People like me don't like Obamacare because we believe the cause of the healthcare disaster in the country is a result of healthcare costs, not healthcare coverage. Basically, it's a demand-side issue to me. Healthcare costs are too high in this country as a result of lack of competition (nobody comparison shops doctors for cost, that's a problem), lack of transparency in healthcare costs (the 82%+ of people in this country who have insurance don't actually pay the true cost of their healthcare and as a result have no motive to save money, that's also a problem) and out of control tort laws (does anyone disagree that this country is entirely too lawsuit happy?). The result is doctors and pharmaceutical companies can charge whatever they want. They can also suggest expensive and potentially unnecessary treatment because the people actually getting the care aren't actually paying for it (in fact they have no idea what the doctor is actually charging). I've personally seen this several times in my own experience. As a direct result, there's no linkage between the cost of healthcare and its efficacy. The demand distorting effect of employer-provided insurance disables people's ability to identify effective healthcare. Now, add in the huge cost of (largely frivolous) medical malpractice lawsuits and the required insurance and things get even worse. So, here we are with an incredibly expensive healthcare system that doesn't actually work that well.
Keeping the existing system intact and extending coverage to everyone solves exactly none of these core problems, in fact it makes all of them worse. The core issue is that it dramatically increases the price distortion that's already the central problem in healthcare. Also, it's ruinous to the Federal budget, gets politics deeply involved in healthcare and takes away the ability of individuals to make effective (from both a cost and curative standpoint) healthcare decisions. These all seem like legitimate reasons to disagree with Obamacare to me. Making the tough decision to force people to take ownership of the cost of their healthcare is politically unpalatable but will do much more to reduce healthcare costs and eventually solve the healthcare problem.
People like me don't like Obamacare because we believe the cause of the healthcare disaster in the country is a result of healthcare costs, not healthcare coverage. Basically, it's a demand-side issue to me. Healthcare costs are too high in this country as a result of lack of competition (nobody comparison shops doctors for cost, that's a problem), lack of transparency in healthcare costs (the 82%+ of people in this country who have insurance don't actually pay the true cost of their healthcare and as a result have no motive to save money, that's also a problem) and out of control tort laws (does anyone disagree that this country is entirely too lawsuit happy?). The result is doctors and pharmaceutical companies can charge whatever they want. They can also suggest expensive and potentially unnecessary treatment because the people actually getting the care aren't actually paying for it (in fact they have no idea what the doctor is actually charging). I've personally seen this several times in my own experience. As a direct result, there's no linkage between the cost of healthcare and its efficacy. The demand distorting effect of employer-provided insurance disables people's ability to identify effective healthcare. Now, add in the huge cost of (largely frivolous) medical malpractice lawsuits and the required insurance and things get even worse. So, here we are with an incredibly expensive healthcare system that doesn't actually work that well.
Keeping the existing system intact and extending coverage to everyone solves exactly none of these core problems, in fact it makes all of them worse. The core issue is that it dramatically increases the price distortion that's already the central problem in healthcare. Also, it's ruinous to the Federal budget, gets politics deeply involved in healthcare and takes away the ability of individuals to make effective (from both a cost and curative standpoint) healthcare decisions. These all seem like legitimate reasons to disagree with Obamacare to me. Making the tough decision to force people to take ownership of the cost of their healthcare is politically unpalatable but will do much more to reduce healthcare costs and eventually solve the healthcare problem.
Jan 9th 2011, 3:55 am
#32
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Sep 2010
Location: Las Vegas, Nv
Posts: 1,000
Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
Just to give piss into a hurricane, my thoughts:
People like me don't like Obamacare because we believe the cause of the healthcare disaster in the country is a result of healthcare costs, not healthcare coverage. Basically, it's a demand-side issue to me. Healthcare costs are too high in this country as a result of lack of competition (nobody comparison shops doctors for cost, that's a problem), lack of transparency in healthcare costs (the 82%+ of people in this country who have insurance don't actually pay the true cost of their healthcare and as a result have no motive to save money, that's also a problem) and out of control tort laws (does anyone disagree that this country is entirely too lawsuit happy?). The result is doctors and pharmaceutical companies can charge whatever they want. They can also suggest expensive and potentially unnecessary treatment because the people actually getting the care aren't actually paying for it (in fact they have no idea what the doctor is actually charging). I've personally seen this several times in my own experience. As a direct result, there's no linkage between the cost of healthcare and its efficacy. The demand distorting effect of employer-provided insurance disables people's ability to identify effective healthcare. Now, add in the huge cost of (largely frivolous) medical malpractice lawsuits and the required insurance and things get even worse. So, here we are with an incredibly expensive healthcare system that doesn't actually work that well.
Keeping the existing system intact and extending coverage to everyone solves exactly none of these core problems, in fact it makes all of them worse. The core issue is that it dramatically increases the price distortion that's already the central problem in healthcare. Also, it's ruinous to the Federal budget, gets politics deeply involved in healthcare and takes away the ability of individuals to make effective (from both a cost and curative standpoint) healthcare decisions. These all seem like legitimate reasons to disagree with Obamacare to me. Making the tough decision to force people to take ownership of the cost of their healthcare is politically unpalatable but will do much more to reduce healthcare costs and eventually solve the healthcare problem.
People like me don't like Obamacare because we believe the cause of the healthcare disaster in the country is a result of healthcare costs, not healthcare coverage. Basically, it's a demand-side issue to me. Healthcare costs are too high in this country as a result of lack of competition (nobody comparison shops doctors for cost, that's a problem), lack of transparency in healthcare costs (the 82%+ of people in this country who have insurance don't actually pay the true cost of their healthcare and as a result have no motive to save money, that's also a problem) and out of control tort laws (does anyone disagree that this country is entirely too lawsuit happy?). The result is doctors and pharmaceutical companies can charge whatever they want. They can also suggest expensive and potentially unnecessary treatment because the people actually getting the care aren't actually paying for it (in fact they have no idea what the doctor is actually charging). I've personally seen this several times in my own experience. As a direct result, there's no linkage between the cost of healthcare and its efficacy. The demand distorting effect of employer-provided insurance disables people's ability to identify effective healthcare. Now, add in the huge cost of (largely frivolous) medical malpractice lawsuits and the required insurance and things get even worse. So, here we are with an incredibly expensive healthcare system that doesn't actually work that well.
Keeping the existing system intact and extending coverage to everyone solves exactly none of these core problems, in fact it makes all of them worse. The core issue is that it dramatically increases the price distortion that's already the central problem in healthcare. Also, it's ruinous to the Federal budget, gets politics deeply involved in healthcare and takes away the ability of individuals to make effective (from both a cost and curative standpoint) healthcare decisions. These all seem like legitimate reasons to disagree with Obamacare to me. Making the tough decision to force people to take ownership of the cost of their healthcare is politically unpalatable but will do much more to reduce healthcare costs and eventually solve the healthcare problem.
Jan 9th 2011, 4:17 am
#33
Lapine Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Location: Austin, Texas in my own little world
Posts: 21,691
Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
I agree that the current law does not reduce costs, Hiro, and I have one question for you.
Why is Medicare banned *by law* from negotiating drug prices from pharmaceutical companies?
Every capitalist recognises the power of buying in quantity and retail giants like Wal-Mart have thrived upon it. What makes Medicare different? Should the government be banned from buying *anything* in mass quantity so as to achieve a discount? Things like cement for road works?
There *needs* to be some form of universal coverage. I will not deviate from that principle. But this can only be accomplished through the reduction of cost. Congress has tied Medicare's hands on this issue, which is to me *proof* that multinational corporations run this country and not anyone we've ever elected.
Why is Medicare banned *by law* from negotiating drug prices from pharmaceutical companies?
Every capitalist recognises the power of buying in quantity and retail giants like Wal-Mart have thrived upon it. What makes Medicare different? Should the government be banned from buying *anything* in mass quantity so as to achieve a discount? Things like cement for road works?
There *needs* to be some form of universal coverage. I will not deviate from that principle. But this can only be accomplished through the reduction of cost. Congress has tied Medicare's hands on this issue, which is to me *proof* that multinational corporations run this country and not anyone we've ever elected.
Jan 9th 2011, 2:29 pm
#34
Forum Regular
Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Surrey!
Posts: 163
Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
What porportion of the cost of healthcare is 'drugs' vs doctor fees/hosptial costs/insurance etc etc?
Jan 9th 2011, 3:48 pm
#35
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,865
Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
Hiro's right, of course - costs are the problem. The sad thing is there is no political will to tackle that. The few cost saving measures that healthcare reform put forward immediately brought cries of "death panels" and scaremongering of cutting seniors healthcare. It seems almost politically impossible to have an honest debate on this subject.
Jan 9th 2011, 4:17 pm
#36
Ping-ponger
Joined: Jul 2002
Location: Dreich Alba
Posts: 12,005
Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
Because that was the only way the Republicans would vote for the Medicare drug benefit back in '04... ironically, the VA is allowed to negotiate with drug companies, meaning their drug costs are far lower than Medicare.
Hiro's right, of course - costs are the problem. The sad thing is there is no political will to tackle that. The few cost saving measures that healthcare reform put forward immediately brought cries of "death panels" and scaremongering of cutting seniors healthcare. It seems almost politically impossible to have an honest debate on this subject.
Hiro's right, of course - costs are the problem. The sad thing is there is no political will to tackle that. The few cost saving measures that healthcare reform put forward immediately brought cries of "death panels" and scaremongering of cutting seniors healthcare. It seems almost politically impossible to have an honest debate on this subject.
I absolutely, unreservedly respect the idea of paying back the sacrifices that have been made by true vets (i.e., frontline military, those who served in combat zones) - regardless of whether you believe that the government should have waged any given war, it's a sh*t job.
What I don't understand is why, for example, someone who may have simply sat behind a military-issue desk for 10 years doing a job not too dissimillar to many non-military pencil-pushers deserves any special favors ...
I know someone who includes "Vietnam era vet" high up on his vitae. To my knowledge this person did not perform any dangerous military service in Vietnam itself, and the profession he is in has nothing to do with the military, so why should it be relevant?
Sorry, side issue but it's something I have never really understood.
Jan 9th 2011, 4:34 pm
#37
Banned
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: In my little world ....
Posts: 11,351
Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
Oh sure ... someone has obviously bought into the typical Republican scare tactics. A agree with Snowbunny 100% when she says "There *needs* to be some form of universal coverage. I will not deviate from that principle". Nicely said Amy. None of this is going to be fully implemented until 2022 anyway, so chill out people. Here's some interesting reading to put things in perspective:
http://personalinsure.about.com/od/h.../aa031709a.htm
http://personalinsure.about.com/od/h.../aa031709a.htm
Jan 9th 2011, 4:49 pm
#38
Sursum corda
Joined: Sep 2002
Location: Richmond Hill, GA USA
Posts: 38,860
Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
Can anyone explain to me the special treatment given to US "vets"? Not just medical, but special deals for education, mortgages, etc.?
I absolutely, unreservedly respect the idea of paying back the sacrifices that have been made by true vets (i.e., frontline military, those who served in combat zones) - regardless of whether you believe that the government should have waged any given war, it's a sh*t job.
What I don't understand is why, for example, someone who may have simply sat behind a military-issue desk for 10 years doing a job not too dissimillar to many non-military pencil-pushers deserves any special favors ...
I know someone who includes "Vietnam era vet" high up on his vitae. To my knowledge this person did not perform any dangerous military service in Vietnam itself, and the profession he is in has nothing to do with the military, so why should it be relevant?
Sorry, side issue but it's something I have never really understood.
I absolutely, unreservedly respect the idea of paying back the sacrifices that have been made by true vets (i.e., frontline military, those who served in combat zones) - regardless of whether you believe that the government should have waged any given war, it's a sh*t job.
What I don't understand is why, for example, someone who may have simply sat behind a military-issue desk for 10 years doing a job not too dissimillar to many non-military pencil-pushers deserves any special favors ...
I know someone who includes "Vietnam era vet" high up on his vitae. To my knowledge this person did not perform any dangerous military service in Vietnam itself, and the profession he is in has nothing to do with the military, so why should it be relevant?
Sorry, side issue but it's something I have never really understood.
Jan 9th 2011, 6:06 pm
#39
Heading for Poppyland
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: North Norfolk and northern New York State
Posts: 14,539
What were they cooking that day?
Jan 9th 2011, 6:09 pm
#40
Sursum corda
Joined: Sep 2002
Location: Richmond Hill, GA USA
Posts: 38,860
Jan 9th 2011, 6:11 pm
#41
Heading for Poppyland
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: North Norfolk and northern New York State
Posts: 14,539
Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
Just to give piss into a hurricane, my thoughts:
People like me don't like Obamacare because we believe the cause of the healthcare disaster in the country is a result of healthcare costs, not healthcare coverage. Basically, it's a demand-side issue to me. Healthcare costs are too high in this country as a result of lack of competition (nobody comparison shops doctors for cost, that's a problem), lack of transparency in healthcare costs (the 82%+ of people in this country who have insurance don't actually pay the true cost of their healthcare and as a result have no motive to save money, that's also a problem) and out of control tort laws (does anyone disagree that this country is entirely too lawsuit happy?). The result is doctors and pharmaceutical companies can charge whatever they want. They can also suggest expensive and potentially unnecessary treatment because the people actually getting the care aren't actually paying for it (in fact they have no idea what the doctor is actually charging). I've personally seen this several times in my own experience. As a direct result, there's no linkage between the cost of healthcare and its efficacy. The demand distorting effect of employer-provided insurance disables people's ability to identify effective healthcare. Now, add in the huge cost of (largely frivolous) medical malpractice lawsuits and the required insurance and things get even worse. So, here we are with an incredibly expensive healthcare system that doesn't actually work that well.
Keeping the existing system intact and extending coverage to everyone solves exactly none of these core problems, in fact it makes all of them worse. The core issue is that it dramatically increases the price distortion that's already the central problem in healthcare. Also, it's ruinous to the Federal budget, gets politics deeply involved in healthcare and takes away the ability of individuals to make effective (from both a cost and curative standpoint) healthcare decisions. These all seem like legitimate reasons to disagree with Obamacare to me. Making the tough decision to force people to take ownership of the cost of their healthcare is politically unpalatable but will do much more to reduce healthcare costs and eventually solve the healthcare problem.
People like me don't like Obamacare because we believe the cause of the healthcare disaster in the country is a result of healthcare costs, not healthcare coverage. Basically, it's a demand-side issue to me. Healthcare costs are too high in this country as a result of lack of competition (nobody comparison shops doctors for cost, that's a problem), lack of transparency in healthcare costs (the 82%+ of people in this country who have insurance don't actually pay the true cost of their healthcare and as a result have no motive to save money, that's also a problem) and out of control tort laws (does anyone disagree that this country is entirely too lawsuit happy?). The result is doctors and pharmaceutical companies can charge whatever they want. They can also suggest expensive and potentially unnecessary treatment because the people actually getting the care aren't actually paying for it (in fact they have no idea what the doctor is actually charging). I've personally seen this several times in my own experience. As a direct result, there's no linkage between the cost of healthcare and its efficacy. The demand distorting effect of employer-provided insurance disables people's ability to identify effective healthcare. Now, add in the huge cost of (largely frivolous) medical malpractice lawsuits and the required insurance and things get even worse. So, here we are with an incredibly expensive healthcare system that doesn't actually work that well.
Keeping the existing system intact and extending coverage to everyone solves exactly none of these core problems, in fact it makes all of them worse. The core issue is that it dramatically increases the price distortion that's already the central problem in healthcare. Also, it's ruinous to the Federal budget, gets politics deeply involved in healthcare and takes away the ability of individuals to make effective (from both a cost and curative standpoint) healthcare decisions. These all seem like legitimate reasons to disagree with Obamacare to me. Making the tough decision to force people to take ownership of the cost of their healthcare is politically unpalatable but will do much more to reduce healthcare costs and eventually solve the healthcare problem.
Jan 9th 2011, 6:14 pm
#42
Heading for Poppyland
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: North Norfolk and northern New York State
Posts: 14,539
Jan 9th 2011, 6:15 pm
#43
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 41,518
Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
I reckon that would actually work out far cheaper and better for everyone, it is only an ideological fear which is holding the USA back on it. Additional private care would still be permitted as in the UK so you could still have the fancy doctors to prescribe painkillers to the stars.
Jan 9th 2011, 6:17 pm
#44
BE Site Lead
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: MA, USA
Posts: 92,170
Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
Can anyone explain to me the special treatment given to US "vets"? Not just medical, but special deals for education, mortgages, etc.?
I absolutely, unreservedly respect the idea of paying back the sacrifices that have been made by true vets (i.e., frontline military, those who served in combat zones) - regardless of whether you believe that the government should have waged any given war, it's a sh*t job.
What I don't understand is why, for example, someone who may have simply sat behind a military-issue desk for 10 years doing a job not too dissimillar to many non-military pencil-pushers deserves any special favors ...
I know someone who includes "Vietnam era vet" high up on his vitae. To my knowledge this person did not perform any dangerous military service in Vietnam itself, and the profession he is in has nothing to do with the military, so why should it be relevant?
Sorry, side issue but it's something I have never really understood.
I absolutely, unreservedly respect the idea of paying back the sacrifices that have been made by true vets (i.e., frontline military, those who served in combat zones) - regardless of whether you believe that the government should have waged any given war, it's a sh*t job.
What I don't understand is why, for example, someone who may have simply sat behind a military-issue desk for 10 years doing a job not too dissimillar to many non-military pencil-pushers deserves any special favors ...
I know someone who includes "Vietnam era vet" high up on his vitae. To my knowledge this person did not perform any dangerous military service in Vietnam itself, and the profession he is in has nothing to do with the military, so why should it be relevant?
Sorry, side issue but it's something I have never really understood.
Jan 9th 2011, 7:20 pm
#45
Forum Regular
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: primordial swamp
Posts: 232
Re: Why Americans don't like Obamacare
Thats one of many opinions. Which, if anyone does not agree with said opinion or does not hail the second coming of obama, then we see the true colors of "progressives" come out.