Where is the anger?

Old Sep 16th 2021, 7:23 pm
  #226  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
How many would you like to die before you take measures?
Let's invent a vaccine and offer it to everyone who wants it? That is the only thing we can do that will work and not be counterproductive.

We can't let a bunch of hysterical babies and tyrannical politicians rule our lives on a flimsy over hyped premise and bizarre logic with no limiting principles.
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Old Sep 16th 2021, 7:25 pm
  #227  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

We can't let a bunch of hysterical babies and tyrannical politicians rule our lives
Ah there we go. We have a full tilt tinfoil hat wearing MAGA maniac in the house.
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Old Sep 16th 2021, 7:31 pm
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by civilservant View Post
Ah there we go. We have a full tilt tinfoil hat wearing MAGA maniac in the house.
Not in my house though, fortunately.

Sometimes I just shake my head.
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Old Sep 16th 2021, 7:32 pm
  #229  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by civilservant View Post
Ah there we go. We have a full tilt tinfoil hat wearing MAGA maniac in the house.
That's twice you have referred to trump with no basis - any one with whom you disagree is a republican and therefore a bad person? That's sad.

Trump and US partisanship is nothing to do with me. I have no allegiance. You clearly let it drive your thought process. Keep me out if it
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Old Sep 16th 2021, 7:32 pm
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by SimonLes View Post
Let's invent a vaccine and offer it to everyone who wants it? That is the only thing we can do that will work and not be counterproductive.

.
But you said that it's the vaccinated people who are causing more dangerous variants. Surely you making the vaccine available to people is making matters worse then, according to you.
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Old Sep 16th 2021, 7:34 pm
  #231  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Let the insults flow, it just makes me more powerful like that bloke in star wars . It shows you can't debate the points, because you are wrong. You've just ignored most of the things I have pointed out.
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Old Sep 16th 2021, 7:34 pm
  #232  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

That's twice you have referred to trump with no basis - any one with whom you disagree is a republican and therefore a bad person?
Anyone who roundly rejects science based reasoning is typically not worth my time in debating, correct. The old axiom 'never have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent' applies.

Let the insults flow, it just makes me more powerful like that bloke in star wars
If you're referring to Palpatine, he ended up at the bottom of a very long shaft. Didn't work out so well for him in the end.
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Old Sep 16th 2021, 7:34 pm
  #233  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
But you said that it's the vaccinated people who are causing more dangerous variants. Surely you making the vaccine available to people is making matters worse then, according to you.
No, according to you. You are the one wetting your pants about new variants.
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Old Sep 16th 2021, 7:36 pm
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by SimonLes View Post
The virus is more likely to mutate when resisting antibodies in a vaccinated person or person who has natural immunity.

.
Originally Posted by SimonLes View Post
No, according to you.

No, you. Right there. See it?
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Old Sep 16th 2021, 7:59 pm
  #235  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

I can say for my little part of the world, its not the relatively small number (by comparison to drug overdose deaths in 2020 or the 600 people who died in a week in June from heatwave we had) of COVID deaths that are driving restrictions here its the hospital capacity, simply put hospitals can't handle 200-400% increases in COVID patients for very long, and while this week the increases have been smaller (only 10% increase yesterday over the previous week) this is the first week in nearly 6 weeks we are not seeing huge increases.

We have hospitals on the verge of collapse, nurses are burning out at a high rate as are support staff, many leaving the healthcare profession, others taking leaves from work as burnout is real, because of the unvaccinated taking up limited resources in the hospitals, we have had hundreds of surgeries and outpatient procedures cancelled week after week across the province in most hospitals, we have some hospitals so dire nursing wise that they can barely function, last week a lady died in the ER, there should have been 24 nurses on duty, there were only 2 or 3 as there simply were no nurses available, and that hospital has a large COVID population in the ICU and in general, that resources are spread thin and someone died, and I imagine there are others who will have died or will die because their treatment was delayed because unvaccinated are taking up resources.

We have Alberta next door which is a hybrid Texas-Florida in one that well the right wing leader apologized for screwing up and being too lax then introduced stricter restrictions than we do in BC, but their hospitals are within a week of total collapse as their growth rate is very bad.

So its not always about deaths and preventing deaths, its about having a limited resource called healthcare.

Its becoming more and more of a popular idea here to simply deny ICU space to unvaccinated and just keep them comfortable and let nature take its course, because pretty are fed up with others having to suffer while people who chose not to get vaccinated divert healthcare resources away from others who are vaccinated but have other healthcare issues.

There was a man in Texas who died from gallstones, apparently the area hospitals so full of COVID patients none had the ability to admit him for surgery.

There was another man in Canada who was literally minutes away from surgery, like the surgeon had come in and everyone was ready, cancelled literally last minute, because unvaccinated COVID patients took up the last couple of beds, and so any surgery that was signiciant and needing ICU had to be cancelled since there were no ICU beds left.

Should that man with a literal hole in his head from cancer have to keep suffering and risking infection because he couldn't get his surgery because unvaccinated are taking up precious ICU resources.

As you can see in my part of the world it isn't the vaccinated causing the problem, sure a small amount are ending up in hospital but we already know vaccines are generally less effective in seniors, so no surprise some seniors fully vaccinated are ending up in ICU, but notice how nobody under 50 fully vaccinated has ended up in ICU, but oh look people as young as 20 something unvaccinated have.

So do vaccines prevent 100% no, but not sure why anything ever thought 100% was possible, we know the vaccines are not 100% effective, but think if all those unvaccinated got vaccinated how much better off we would be right now.

We don't live in society where we can enslave nurses and force them to work 24/7 and refuse to let them quit when burnt out, we live in reality where people do burn out, and do quit and go on medical leave due to the burn out, and even if you added 500 nursing seats to the nursing programs at the universities, your still 4 to 5 years away from having 500 new nurses but since nursing programs don't have 100% graduation rates and a fair amount drop out, you would never get 500 nurses from 500 seats anyway.



A comparison to COVID for 2021, in June in a span of 1 week 570 people died in BC from a heat wave, these are of the 808 deaths in total that week, but the coroner agency attributed the heatwave to 570 of those deaths.

More people died in just 2020 from drug overdoses and suicide than they have from COVID since the first death here in Feb 2020, everyone is very aware that COVID may not be the leading cause of death, but it is the #1 leading cause of overwhelmed hospitals here in BC and in the US, I don't think I have heard of a 400% increase in hospitalizations due to heart attacks or cancer or strokes, not even the influenza outbreaks in the past causes these, even SARS didn't lead to this level of hospitalizations, I can't think of anything in recent memory that has caused hospitalization to spike this badly, it makes the worst flu season look like a walk in the park.

If the government said today that unvaccinated would no longer receive ICU care so beds are available for other needs, there would be little outrage from most of the population who is just fed up with anti-vaxx crowd and their protests and their blockades of hospitals and attacking of healthcare workers, not many have sympathy for the unvaccinated who chose not to get vaccinated.

( by unvaccinated I mean those choosing not to for no valid reason other than I don't want it, or Bill Gates is tracking me, or whatever conspiracy theory it is, those with a valid medical reason I do not consider to be anti-vaxxers and I do not include those people in the unvaccinated group.)




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Old Sep 16th 2021, 8:32 pm
  #236  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
No, you. Right there. See it?
Childish.

So, to summarise your position

Vaccinated people are pretty safe from Covid, the vaccine works,. But it might not work against a variant that might mutate but that can only happen in unvaccinated people.
Therefore unvaccinated people (but only in the USA) are bad because they ALL have no natural immunity and haven't had covid because that's not possible, so everyone unvaccinated is automatically a bad person and can't make an informed decision (you know better than them) because they are nasty little sewers of corona virus where corona virus mutates and creates new variants and that can't happen in vaccinated people because they can't get corona virus but if they do the virus wont mutate in them because you found an article in the guardian that said so.
So in order to protect the (good) vaccinated people because the vaccine might not work against the variant that might mutate but only in the horrid unvaccinated we have to force everyone including kids and people who had corona virus already at gun point to have the vaccine either in the whole world (and to pay for it tax the rich?) or just in the USA and lock down the borders (build that wall?) and never let anyone in and out ever again because even if we are all vaccinated a mutation might occur in some dirty 3rd world country and get in and kill us all.

and you should be in control and make all the decisions because you know lots about this (you don't) and are morally superior to everyone else (you are not) and if anyone disagrees you will call them names and shout at them and force them to have injections and stuff they don't want to do "becasue the greater good" (yeah baby, down with nazis!)

All this for a virus with a mortality rate of less than 1% in anyone under 54 and an average age of mortality greater than the average age of death. Which predominantly mostly kills fat people, old people and sick people.

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Old Sep 16th 2021, 8:39 pm
  #237  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 View Post

( by unvaccinated I mean those choosing not to for no valid reason other than I don't want it, or Bill Gates is tracking me, or whatever conspiracy theory it is, those with a valid medical reason I do not consider to be anti-vaxxers and I do not include those people in the unvaccinated group.)
Yet a majority of the population are vaccinated, so that is a fraction of those hitting the hospitals compared to last year. I'm sorry I don't have the exact figure, so lets go with 25% of adults are unvaccintaed. Take from that those who aren't nanobot whackjobs and those with natural immunity through having covid. That's a pretty small, unidentifiable percentage of people you are frustrated with.
Secondly the hospitals are (based on my estimation) dealing with 75% less corona virus cases than they were last year. Shouldn't they be taking some anger, for not preparing for this. They have had plenty of time.
Lastly, the same applies for fatties, drinkers, smokers, people who do no exercise, druggies. They take up hospital beds too and that's something that was possibly preventable. Should they be denied treatment? Maybe but that isn't a very palatable approach so you can't extend that to "unvaccinated nanobot freaks who didn't have Covid already" as tempting as it may be
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Old Sep 16th 2021, 10:43 pm
  #238  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by SimonLes View Post
We can't let a bunch of hysterical babies and tyrannical politicians rule our lives on a flimsy over hyped premise and bizarre logic with no limiting principles.
Are you David Icke?
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Old Sep 16th 2021, 10:48 pm
  #239  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by BristolUK View Post
Are you David Icke?
Are you offended because I just described you?
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Old Sep 16th 2021, 10:52 pm
  #240  
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Default Re: Where is the anger?

Originally Posted by SimonLes View Post
Vaccinated people are pretty safe from Covid, the vaccine works,. But it might not work against a variant that might mutate but that can only happen in unvaccinated people.
Every time a piece of genetic material replicates there is the chance of transcription errors, or mutations as they are commonly known.

They can happen in vaccinated people and they can happen in unvaccinated people.

The single best way to reduce the chance of variants popping up is to prevent the virus from replicating in the first place, which means widespread vaccination and breaking those chains of transmission.
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