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US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(

US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(

Old May 15th 2020, 9:25 pm
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Default Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(

Originally Posted by Jsmth321
Like most things in the US, it varies state to state, different states have different laws, the vast majority of criminal cases are dealt with at the state level, not the federal level.

If caught drunk driving in California your facing some pretty hefty fines, and other things, likely wont get a jail sentence on first offense though, assuming you didn't hurt or kill someone.

If you kill someone in California while drunk you can be charged with Vehicular manslaughter while intoxicated which can be a felony or misdemeanor, Gross vehicular manslaughter while intoxicated which is a felony or DUI murder which is a felony.

Prosecutors have to be able to prove for Vehicular manslaughter while intoxicated:
  1. That you drove under the influence
  2. That you broke some other law (such as speeding) in addition to your DUI
  3. That you acted with “negligence”
  4. That your negligence directly lead to someone’s death
Gross vehicular manslaughter is identical to regular vehicular manslaughter, except for two things:
  • The prosecution must prove that you acted with “gross” negligence
  • Gross vehicular manslaughter while intoxicated is always tried as a felony.
If convicted faces a minimum of 4 years to a maximum of 10 years.

The most serious DUI charge you can face is DUI murder. DUI murder implies that you set out driving drunk with a conscious disregard for human life, but this charge is fairly rare as its very difficult to get a conviction on this charge, but if convicted its anywhere from 15 years to life.

DA and defense of course will want to avoid trial whenever possible and will likely come to a plea bargain for lesser charges both sides can agree upon.
Do you also get another 25 to life on top of that for 3 strikes if applicable. They do that in California don't they?.
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Old May 15th 2020, 10:24 pm
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Default Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(

Originally Posted by andyrebell
The difference between death by and careless and dangerous I can't explain I am not a legal mind.
If you accidentally drive through a red traffic light and have an accident - it is careless driving.

If you deliberately drive through a red traffic light and have an accident - it is dangerous driving.
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Old May 15th 2020, 11:06 pm
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Default Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(

Originally Posted by lansbury
If you accidentally drive through a red traffic light and have an accident - it is careless driving.

If you deliberately drive through a red traffic light and have an accident - it is dangerous driving.

And careless driving doesn't always lead to a ticket or any punishment in the US. I know that based on personal experience, but nobody was killed or seriously injured.



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Old May 15th 2020, 11:18 pm
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Default Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(

Originally Posted by lansbury
If you accidentally drive through a red traffic light and have an accident - it is careless driving.

If you deliberately drive through a red traffic light and have an accident - it is dangerous driving.
Not necessarily, at least not in the UK.

It might be tempting to label such things as inherently "dangerous" or "careless", but both of those terms are actually defined in statute:

Road Traffic Act 1988
Road Traffic Act 1988

There's enough there for a skilled brief to mount a technical defense.
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Old May 16th 2020, 2:00 am
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Default Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(

Originally Posted by TexanScot
Not necessarily, at least not in the UK.

It might be tempting to label such things as inherently "dangerous" or "careless", but both of those terms are actually defined in statute:

Road Traffic Act 1988
Road Traffic Act 1988

There's enough there for a skilled brief to mount a technical defense.
I wasn’t intending to post a lesson in the legal definitions of both, but rather provide a simplistic example so that the average person could understand the basic difference. Yes it is defined in the Road Traffic Act and I am well aware of the defense that could be put forward on her behalf. But the example I used came from a firm of solicitors in the UK who specialize in defending traffic cases, and is a quite simple way of demonstrating the difference. It was also used with the specific person I was replying to in mind.
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Old May 16th 2020, 2:30 am
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Default Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(

Originally Posted by andyrebell
Do you also get another 25 to life on top of that for 3 strikes if applicable. They do that in California don't they?.
Dunno if DUI with a death qualifies for 3 strikes, but maybe it does. I think California has done some reforms to their 3 strike laws over the years as it was causing quite a problem with too many people in prison.
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Old May 17th 2020, 4:16 pm
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Default Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(

I'm really confused about this case.

According to this article: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/100799...ry-dunn-death/ this is the first time the US has ever turned down an extradition request from the UK. I have no idea if that's true, but it's certainly extraordinary if it is. The extraordinary lengths the US has gone to to prevent her extradition is likely due to the fact that Sacoolas is a former, fairly senior CIA employee. Now that this has been revealed, perhaps the US is worried that having her in the UK justice system is somehow a security risk? Who knows. I don't get it. Just honor the extradition request, let her serve her five years and call it a day.

Secondly, the waffling by the British Foreign Office over whether or not Sacoolas truly had diplomatic immunity in this case is baffling: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...olas-illogical At the end of the day, it was the Foreign Office that let her leave the UK. While I'm sure her release was at the US's urging, British authorities could have more forcefully objected at that time. After all, they had literally weeks to do so. The incident happened on 27 August and Sacoolas didn't leave the UK until 16 September. It's not like Sacoolas was immediately secreted out of the UK by the US in the dead of night. Why did the Foreign Office let her go only to complain loudly and publicly a few weeks later that she had no claim to diplomatic immunity? This seems incompetent. Or, more likely, the Foreign Office quietly agreed to let her go, subsequently the story broke and the Foreign Office was forced into action by public sentiment.

The whole thing is a mess.

Last edited by Hiro11; May 17th 2020 at 4:23 pm.
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Old May 17th 2020, 4:47 pm
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Default Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(

Originally Posted by Hiro11
Why did the Foreign Office let her go only to complain loudly and publicly a few weeks later that she had no claim to diplomatic immunity? This seems incompetent. Or, more likely, the Foreign Office quietly agreed to let her go, subsequently the story broke and the Foreign Office was forced into action by public sentiment.
This is the most likely of the scenarios.... Alongside maybe a little strong-arming by the US Ambassador......
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Old May 17th 2020, 4:48 pm
  #264  
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Default Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(

Originally Posted by Hiro11
I'm really confused about this case.

According to this article: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/100799...ry-dunn-death/ this is the first time the US has ever turned down an extradition request from the UK. I have no idea if that's true, but it's certainly extraordinary if it is. The extraordinary lengths the US has gone to to prevent her extradition is likely due to the fact that Sacoolas is a former, fairly senior CIA employee. Now that this has been revealed, perhaps the US is worried that having her in the UK justice system is somehow a security risk? Who knows. I don't get it. Just honor the extradition request, let her serve her five years and call it a day.

Secondly, the waffling by the British Foreign Office over whether or not Sacoolas truly had diplomatic immunity in this case is baffling: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...olas-illogical At the end of the day, it was the Foreign Office that let her leave the UK. While I'm sure her release was at the US's urging, British authorities could have more forcefully objected at that time. After all, they had literally weeks to do so. The incident happened on 27 August and Sacoolas didn't leave the UK until 16 September. It's not like Sacoolas was immediately secreted out of the UK by the US in the dead of night. Why did the Foreign Office let her go only to complain loudly and publicly a few weeks later that she had no claim to diplomatic immunity? This seems incompetent. Or, more likely, the Foreign Office quietly agreed to let her go, subsequently the story broke and the Foreign Office was forced into action by public sentiment.

The whole thing is a mess.
I'd certainly agree with your last statement.

I don't really care about the crossed T's and dotted I's of the case..... I just think about the family of a 19-year old, killed by someone driving on the wrong side of the road and who admitted liability at the scene. Nothing could have undone the tragedy, but being caught in the middle of a diplomatic wrangle certainly has made it worse. The parents have lost their son and are basically being told "tough, his life doesn't count", not by the Russians, not by the Chinese, not by daesh, but by so-called friends.
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Old May 17th 2020, 5:22 pm
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Default Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(

Originally Posted by Hiro11
I'm really confused about this case.

According to this article: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/100799...ry-dunn-death/ this is the first time the US has ever turned down an extradition request from the UK. I have no idea if that's true, but it's certainly extraordinary if it is. The extraordinary lengths the US has gone to to prevent her extradition is likely due to the fact that Sacoolas is a former, fairly senior CIA employee. Now that this has been revealed, perhaps the US is worried that having her in the UK justice system is somehow a security risk? Who knows. I don't get it. Just honor the extradition request, let her serve her five years and call it a day.

Secondly, the waffling by the British Foreign Office over whether or not Sacoolas truly had diplomatic immunity in this case is baffling: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...olas-illogical At the end of the day, it was the Foreign Office that let her leave the UK. While I'm sure her release was at the US's urging, British authorities could have more forcefully objected at that time. After all, they had literally weeks to do so. The incident happened on 27 August and Sacoolas didn't leave the UK until 16 September. It's not like Sacoolas was immediately secreted out of the UK by the US in the dead of night. Why did the Foreign Office let her go only to complain loudly and publicly a few weeks later that she had no claim to diplomatic immunity? This seems incompetent. Or, more likely, the Foreign Office quietly agreed to let her go, subsequently the story broke and the Foreign Office was forced into action by public sentiment.

The whole thing is a mess.
So what is the difference between extradition and being deported because it is nearly always brit criminals returned home to UK. Brit criminals who in nearly all circumstances had entered on the Visa Waiver Program and been caught after a period of time. I can remember only one american ever being sent over after they found his girlfriend dead in a car at heathrow in the early 90s.

It is ironic that the americans would think english jails are a risk when Neil Entwhistle is in a minimum security jail now because the threats to his life in maximum security from the Aryan Brotherhood because he was english and it was because he was english they hated him for that. There has never been a murder in an english womens jail to my knowledge or even an incident of serious violence not even when Myra hindley was alive. But as in terms of would a foreign actor attempt to grab her whilst in transit between court and jail? Possible there have been armed jail breaks before though unlikely it is not hollywood. It is more likely a foreign actor might attempt to turn her by getting someone close to her in jail that might be possible. But that even is fanciful. I think. And btw she wouldn't get close to the 5 years.
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Old May 17th 2020, 6:43 pm
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Default Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(

Generally, deportation is the process of arresting and expelling a foreign national (usually but not always back to the country of origin) for violations of our nation's immigration laws, whereas extradition is the process of handing over an individual, without regard to citizenship, to another country seeking to prosecute that individual for crimes under that nation's laws.

https://cis.org/Cadman/Interesting-C...and-Complexity


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Old May 18th 2020, 3:59 pm
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Default Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(

Originally Posted by andyrebell
So what is the difference between extradition and being deported .....
It's who forced the issue - to deport is to expel an individual from a country, whereas extradition is to claim control of indvidual who is an another country.

Typically a country would deport a non-citizen after a sentence has been served, whereas an extradition would to be seize someone so that you could prosecute them.

Therefore if a country were to obtain by extradition, control ovrt an individual who is not a citizen of the country requesting extradition e.g. if Sacoolas were extradited from the the US to the UK, then at the end of the sentence the extradicted individual would typically be deported, in the case of Sacoolas, by the UK.
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Old May 19th 2020, 9:56 am
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Default Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(

Originally Posted by Pulaski
It's who forced the issue - to deport is to expel an individual from a country, whereas extradition is to claim control of indvidual who is an another country.

Typically a country would deport a non-citizen after a sentence has been served, whereas an extradition would to be seize someone so that you could prosecute them.

Therefore if a country were to obtain by extradition, control ovrt an individual who is not a citizen of the country requesting extradition e.g. if Sacoolas were extradited from the the US to the UK, then at the end of the sentence the extradicted individual would typically be deported, in the case of Sacoolas, by the UK.
So can a person contest extradition between states within the USA?. And what would happen if they won that legal battle?
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Old May 19th 2020, 11:56 am
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Default Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(

Originally Posted by andyrebell
So can a person contest extradition between states within the USA?. And what would happen if they won that legal battle?
Yes they can. They must file a writ of habeas corpus. If granted they would be released.

https://criminal.findlaw.com/crimina...n-process.html
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Old May 19th 2020, 12:35 pm
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Default Re: US Diplomat's wife kills biker in UK then flees country :(

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
Yes they can. They must file a writ of habeas corpus. If granted they would be released.

https://criminal.findlaw.com/crimina...n-process.html
But then they could never return to the wanted state nor leave their home state I presume?
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