Settle this one for me - use the bite point or not?
#1
Settle this one for me - use the bite point or not?
I recently bought a car with gears (stick shift) after being here for a few years driving automatics. I have this ongoing debate with my wife (USC) about clutch control and the bite point:
I insist that it is vital to put on the handbrake at a stop light especially on a hill and then find the bite point when driving off. I was taught like this by my driving instructor in the UK many moons ago. In the same situation my wife would keep the clutch and brake on and quickly switches to the accelerator/gas pedal when moving off.
I argue that she is wearing out the clutch and any movement backwards could be dangerous as she switches between pedals. She thinks I am being silly. She never learnt to use the bite point.
Please settle this one for me!
I insist that it is vital to put on the handbrake at a stop light especially on a hill and then find the bite point when driving off. I was taught like this by my driving instructor in the UK many moons ago. In the same situation my wife would keep the clutch and brake on and quickly switches to the accelerator/gas pedal when moving off.
I argue that she is wearing out the clutch and any movement backwards could be dangerous as she switches between pedals. She thinks I am being silly. She never learnt to use the bite point.
Please settle this one for me!
Last edited by savannah_boy; Aug 11th 2014 at 2:02 am.
#2
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 22,105
Re: Settle this one for me - use the bite point or not?
I recently bought a car with gears (stick shift) after being here for a few years driving automatics. I have this ongoing debate with my wife (USC) about clutch control and the bite point:
I insist that it is vital to put on the handbrake at a stop light especially on a hill and then find the bite point when driving off. I was taught like this by my driving instructor in the UK many moons ago. In the same situation my wife would keep the clutch and brake on and quickly switches to the accelerator/gas pedal when moving off.
I argue that she is wearing out the clutch and any movement backwards could be dangerous as she switches between pedals. She thinks I am being silly. She never learnt to use the bite point.
Please settle this one for me!
I insist that it is vital to put on the handbrake at a stop light especially on a hill and then find the bite point when driving off. I was taught like this by my driving instructor in the UK many moons ago. In the same situation my wife would keep the clutch and brake on and quickly switches to the accelerator/gas pedal when moving off.
I argue that she is wearing out the clutch and any movement backwards could be dangerous as she switches between pedals. She thinks I am being silly. She never learnt to use the bite point.
Please settle this one for me!
#3
Re: Settle this one for me - use the bite point or not?
Is it really worth having this discussion with your wife? What you were taught and what she was taught isn't going to make much difference except to annoy each other.
#4
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Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Finally moving!
Posts: 1,236
Re: Settle this one for me - use the bite point or not?
I was taught it your way. Your wife's way is distinctly problematical setting off steep uphill such as you find in San Francisco.
In my younger days I used to do my own version of heel-and-toe, that is operate the accelerator with the toe of my right foot and at the same time operate the foot brake with the heel of my right foot.
I've seen ancient lorries and sports cars with non-synchromesh (crash boxes) where there is a need to double declutch operated with the other version - toe on the footbrake and blip the accelerator with the side of the heel. Usually rally drivers changing gear while braking for a corner.
All different these days with new fangled computers in cars of course (says she who long ago in an earlier life wrote technical literature for chips used as engine control computers).
In my younger days I used to do my own version of heel-and-toe, that is operate the accelerator with the toe of my right foot and at the same time operate the foot brake with the heel of my right foot.
I've seen ancient lorries and sports cars with non-synchromesh (crash boxes) where there is a need to double declutch operated with the other version - toe on the footbrake and blip the accelerator with the side of the heel. Usually rally drivers changing gear while braking for a corner.
All different these days with new fangled computers in cars of course (says she who long ago in an earlier life wrote technical literature for chips used as engine control computers).
#5
Re: Settle this one for me - use the bite point or not?
You're both right!
I was taught to use the handbrake anywhere where you come to a full stop, eg traffic lights, pedestrian crossings, non-moving traffic jams - one of the reasons given that if someone doesn't stop in time and rear-ends you this reduces the chances of you being pushed forwards into a pedestrian/other car. Obviously depends on the speed of the impact , but also could reduce your liability if you end up rear-ending the car in front as a consequence.
Anywhere where you come to a temporary halt and will have to move away quickly so as to maintain the flow of traffic, eg give way signs at junctions, roundabouts, then holding the clutch at biting point is ok. (I would put the Stop sign at US junctions in the same category, given they fulfil mainly the same function as UK "give way" signs) Using the handbrake is acceptable, particularly on hills, but usually for people who are not confident in their clutch control. I remember impressing my instructor by catching the biting point at a junction on a hill and bypassing the brake altogether. I think that's when he said "ok, you're ready to take your test now".
I was taught to use the handbrake anywhere where you come to a full stop, eg traffic lights, pedestrian crossings, non-moving traffic jams - one of the reasons given that if someone doesn't stop in time and rear-ends you this reduces the chances of you being pushed forwards into a pedestrian/other car. Obviously depends on the speed of the impact , but also could reduce your liability if you end up rear-ending the car in front as a consequence.
Anywhere where you come to a temporary halt and will have to move away quickly so as to maintain the flow of traffic, eg give way signs at junctions, roundabouts, then holding the clutch at biting point is ok. (I would put the Stop sign at US junctions in the same category, given they fulfil mainly the same function as UK "give way" signs) Using the handbrake is acceptable, particularly on hills, but usually for people who are not confident in their clutch control. I remember impressing my instructor by catching the biting point at a junction on a hill and bypassing the brake altogether. I think that's when he said "ok, you're ready to take your test now".
#6
Re: Settle this one for me - use the bite point or not?
I was taught to use the point of bite and the handbrake, and that works fine when your vehicle has a handbrake between the seats adjacent to one's right hand. However, I have had a few vehicles with a handbrake that one pulled out horizontally from under the dash, and the clutch/brake maneuver doesn't really work with those. So nowadays I do whatever fits the circumstances.
#7
Re: Settle this one for me - use the bite point or not?
I was taught to use the point of bite and the handbrake, and that works fine when your vehicle has a handbrake between the seats adjacent to one's right hand. However, I have had a few vehicles with a handbrake that one pulled out horizontally from under the dash, and the clutch/brake maneuver doesn't really work with those. So nowadays I do whatever fits the circumstances.
Mrs P does not use the bite and handbrake method , as she learned to drive in the US and never drove in the UK when she lived there; I continue to try to persuade her that sitting in traffic it is much safer to have the handbrake engaged.
#8
Re: Settle this one for me - use the bite point or not?
My outback (cvt auto) has a special hill start button that will apparently automatically apply / disengage the parking brake for you. The salesman explained it all but I instantly forgot it and so never used it.
#9
Re: Settle this one for me - use the bite point or not?
In the old days, nearly all hand brakes operated the same way with a cable to apply mechanical friction to the brakes which never was a very good system since on a hill, it could start moving when parked. In fact when I was in Switzerland, my TR4-A broke down and when it was being towed on a flatbed truck, the driver didn't tie the car to the truck, put on the handbrake, and when he popped the clutch on a slight hill, the TR4-A slipped right off the truck.
Now some cars have a parking pawl, a part of the transmission that backs up the parking brake, and Tesla uses an electronic handbrake since a parking pawl gave them problems and the Tesla also brakes when the car decelerates. With modern cars, it's pretty hard to know what is happening when using the parking brake and using it constantly may not be the best for the car.
Now some cars have a parking pawl, a part of the transmission that backs up the parking brake, and Tesla uses an electronic handbrake since a parking pawl gave them problems and the Tesla also brakes when the car decelerates. With modern cars, it's pretty hard to know what is happening when using the parking brake and using it constantly may not be the best for the car.
#10
Re: Settle this one for me - use the bite point or not?
I was taught to pull away with the handbrake when on a hill, but now I never bother and have had no clutch issues in any car I've owned.
#12
Re: Settle this one for me - use the bite point or not?
It's really shocking. It broke down on me so often that before I was to move from Geneva to Frankfurt, I had it in the shop for them to inspect and replace anything that looked bad. I then got to Bern and the u-joint broke. But between breakdowns, it was a fun car.
Since the u-joint broke and the tow truck driver probably didn't think about that, he probably figured that the car would stay on the flatbed with it in first gear and the handbrake applied but without the transmission locking the rear wheels, the car just shot of the truck but luckily the car's front bumper hooked the bumper on the truck keeping it from rolling into traffic. He then told me that I should have warned him that the handbrake wasn't working properly.
Since the u-joint broke and the tow truck driver probably didn't think about that, he probably figured that the car would stay on the flatbed with it in first gear and the handbrake applied but without the transmission locking the rear wheels, the car just shot of the truck but luckily the car's front bumper hooked the bumper on the truck keeping it from rolling into traffic. He then told me that I should have warned him that the handbrake wasn't working properly.
Last edited by Michael; Aug 11th 2014 at 6:43 pm.
#13
Re: Settle this one for me - use the bite point or not?
A lot depends on engine size/vehicle weight, and incline. Smaller powered vehicles may need the handbrake to prevent them rolling, larger ones are going to hold position without any gas. My pickup can idle up inclines without applying any gas.
I was taught to use the handbrake on steep inclines (relative to the vehicle engine size) only. For most of the time is was foot on the brake, and when ready to move off you released the clutch until you found the bite point, at which time you took your foot off the brake and simultaneously lifted the clutch the rest of the way whilst applying gas (the clutch holding the vehicle from rolling back). On a steep incline you used the handbrake. If the vehicle can hold its position without the handbrake or brake, then I was taught not to use it.
Any time on the bite point vastly increases clutch wear. So avoiding it when appropriate is going to increase clutch life.
I was taught to use the handbrake on steep inclines (relative to the vehicle engine size) only. For most of the time is was foot on the brake, and when ready to move off you released the clutch until you found the bite point, at which time you took your foot off the brake and simultaneously lifted the clutch the rest of the way whilst applying gas (the clutch holding the vehicle from rolling back). On a steep incline you used the handbrake. If the vehicle can hold its position without the handbrake or brake, then I was taught not to use it.
Any time on the bite point vastly increases clutch wear. So avoiding it when appropriate is going to increase clutch life.
#14
Re: Settle this one for me - use the bite point or not?
I'm an handbrake user myself for 2 reasons.
1) as with the OP it is how I was taught.
2) I hate being sat behind someone with their foot on the brake and a huge eye level cluster or light bar of brake lights dazzling me.
1) as with the OP it is how I was taught.
2) I hate being sat behind someone with their foot on the brake and a huge eye level cluster or light bar of brake lights dazzling me.
#15
Re: Settle this one for me - use the bite point or not?
Since moving here, I initially had a stickshift with a proper handbrake, which I obviously used... then switched to an auto with a foot operated parking brake, which has never been used at all.
And my left leg has withered away to almost nothing...
And my left leg has withered away to almost nothing...