Planespotting II
#781
Re: Planespotting II
When you asked “Why did the crew try and put the aircraft down 1000ft outside of the TDZ” I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about landing 1000ft past the Touch Down Zone and not 1000ft above the glide slope.
Never heard about the 1000ft rule (JAR-OPS1), maybe a company or FAA thing. When I last operated into Gatwick, 2001, a frequent request from atc was to keep 170kts to the marker, that was 1325 agl on 26L about a 4-mile final. Vref would be around 130kts.We could refuse their request but it was never a problem. Certainly, stabilised by 500ft.
Good point
Never heard about the 1000ft rule (JAR-OPS1), maybe a company or FAA thing. When I last operated into Gatwick, 2001, a frequent request from atc was to keep 170kts to the marker, that was 1325 agl on 26L about a 4-mile final. Vref would be around 130kts.We could refuse their request but it was never a problem. Certainly, stabilised by 500ft.
Good point
#782
Re: Planespotting II
The latest BlancoLerio video on PIA 8303 - some more good analysis on the approach to Karachi.
Looking at this, it is clear why the airspeed was so high - the pilot pretty much put the plane into a dive to reach an altitude where an attempt at landing was even possible, at one point the rate of descent was over 7,000ft per minute! Usually the rate of descent approaching an airport wouldn't exceed about 1,000 ft per minute.
The data now available shows that not only was the airspeed vary marginal for lowing the landing gear, but that the airspeed was too high for the flaps to fully deploy for landing.
I fear that the final minutes of PIA 8303 must have been pretty terrifying, and per Markonline above, this is indeed shaping up to be one of the most almighty ****-ups in Aviation history.
Looking at this, it is clear why the airspeed was so high - the pilot pretty much put the plane into a dive to reach an altitude where an attempt at landing was even possible, at one point the rate of descent was over 7,000ft per minute! Usually the rate of descent approaching an airport wouldn't exceed about 1,000 ft per minute.
The data now available shows that not only was the airspeed vary marginal for lowing the landing gear, but that the airspeed was too high for the flaps to fully deploy for landing.
I fear that the final minutes of PIA 8303 must have been pretty terrifying, and per Markonline above, this is indeed shaping up to be one of the most almighty ****-ups in Aviation history.
Last edited by Pulaski; May 27th 2020 at 2:40 pm.
#785
#786
#787
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Posts: 762
Re: Planespotting II
The first 'chirp' is the A/P disconnect.
Overspeed warning, IAS is 205 and the config limit (flaps) is 185
GPWS, Master warning, overspeed etc.
The GA has the speedbrake extended, but this is just a simulation.
There was a whole lot going wrong here.
The pilot flying would most certainly fail his sim check ride and his job IMO.
You have to choose your airlines carefully
Overspeed warning, IAS is 205 and the config limit (flaps) is 185
GPWS, Master warning, overspeed etc.
The GA has the speedbrake extended, but this is just a simulation.
There was a whole lot going wrong here.
The pilot flying would most certainly fail his sim check ride and his job IMO.
You have to choose your airlines carefully
#788
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Joined: Jun 2010
Location: 1.2 East
Posts: 762
Re: Planespotting II
#789
Re: Planespotting II
I have long suspected as much!
I was wondering the same thing, and I appreciate your insight, because my thoughts, as an interested observer, were along the lines of "Why did WTC allow the plane to land based on the altitude and airspeed of the approach?"
I was wondering the same thing, and I appreciate your insight, because my thoughts, as an interested observer, were along the lines of "Why did WTC allow the plane to land based on the altitude and airspeed of the approach?"
Last edited by Pulaski; May 27th 2020 at 3:11 pm.
#790
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Re: Planespotting II
Yes ATC has a lot to answer for here, but the hammer will or should fall on the captain first.
#791
#792
Re: Planespotting II
I have a feeling it basically comes down to '1st world good - 3rd world bad'
Which is a little simplistic. Some highly experienced US pilots have made terrible decisions leading to crashes and death.
AF447 comes to mind (Air France, but still a 5* major airline) These pilots had the best aircraft, had tons of experience, but still crashed a perfectly good plane. Anyone can get into a bad situation that exceeds your ability to cope.
Which is a little simplistic. Some highly experienced US pilots have made terrible decisions leading to crashes and death.
AF447 comes to mind (Air France, but still a 5* major airline) These pilots had the best aircraft, had tons of experience, but still crashed a perfectly good plane. Anyone can get into a bad situation that exceeds your ability to cope.
Last edited by civilservant; May 27th 2020 at 3:42 pm.
#793
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Joined: Jun 2010
Location: 1.2 East
Posts: 762
Re: Planespotting II
If you mean experience, that has nothing to do with it. Seasoned pilots can be good or past their sell by.
#794
Re: Planespotting II
I have a feeling it basically comes down to '1st world good - 3rd world bad'
Which is a little simplistic. Some highly experienced US pilots have made terrible decisions leading to crashes and death.
AF447 comes to mind. These pilots had the best aircraft, had tons of experience, but still crashed a perfectly good plane. Anyone can get into a bad situation that exceeds your ability to cope.
Which is a little simplistic. Some highly experienced US pilots have made terrible decisions leading to crashes and death.
AF447 comes to mind. These pilots had the best aircraft, had tons of experience, but still crashed a perfectly good plane. Anyone can get into a bad situation that exceeds your ability to cope.
#795
Re: Planespotting II
I wouldn’t blame ATC. I’m not gonna post anything on a public forum, let’s just say, not everywhere in the world has the same level of professionalism and standards as the U.K.
If everything is true that has been posted in the last few posts, and let’s be honest, it’s extremely difficult to come up with any other explanation, it absolutely beggars belief.
Right??!! Hate jumping to conclusions, but it’s beginning to look like Harrison Ford isn’t the worst pilot on the planet!!
If everything is true that has been posted in the last few posts, and let’s be honest, it’s extremely difficult to come up with any other explanation, it absolutely beggars belief.
Right??!! Hate jumping to conclusions, but it’s beginning to look like Harrison Ford isn’t the worst pilot on the planet!!
Last edited by markonline1; May 28th 2020 at 12:01 am.