David

It amazes me at how bogged down our (USA) governement agencies are. Not sure if its
the workers of the poorly organized system. Recently, my Canadian wife had to deal
with two Canadian agencies to get certain legal documents. In both cases the
government workers were efficient and friendly, something I don't see often in our
country. We sent off to Canada for a copy of her birth certificate and received the
BC here in the US in 6 days including the weekend! Americans are considered the most
worked employees in the world, but I believe its the poorly organized system that
makes everything so complicated. There is no good reason that our immigration system
needs to be this confusing and complicated. Any comments?

Rete

Actually I have no problem with most US goverment agencies. Ask my Canadian husband about the obtuse way the Canadian Revenue Service is run. They have lost parts of his filings. Taken three years to finalize a tax return and then charged him compounded interest from day one on their mistake. Ask him about how difficult it was to obtain a copy of his divorce decree from Greenwood, NS. And yes, it eventually came from Ottawa where he was living at that time.

No government or private office is without its incompetent workers or incompetency ... period.

Rete

Ade Shell

I 100% agree with you! No other place of business in this country could operate as
poorly as the INS and get away with it! They are accountable to no one!

Jim Battista

"David" <sirfelix(removethis)@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

    > It amazes me at how bogged down our (USA) governement agencies are. Not sure if its
    > the workers of the poorly organized system. Recently, my Canadian wife had to deal
    > with two Canadian agencies to get certain legal documents. In both cases the
    > government workers were efficient and friendly, something I don't see often in our
    > country. We sent off to Canada for a copy of her birth certificate and received the
    > BC here in the US in 6 days including the weekend!

I'm guessing she's not from Ontario, then.

My intended has had incessant struggles trying to force the Government of Ontario to
cough up a birth certificate. When asked why it's taking so long, their only response
is that they had been on strike for a while. Not to mention that the BC itself was
insanely expensive, and they refused to provide more than one copy. As the Kids in
the Hall would say, SCREW YOU, TAXPAYER! Not that we've seen that one copy, mind you,
after about a month.

When I wanted to get another cert. copy of my BC, on the other hand, I went to the
relevant web page, entered my info and mastercard number, and had it inside 3 days,
for less than USD20.

INS is seriously fubared, but a lot of other agencies work just fine.

--
Jim Battista A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.

Dj

As someone who legally went through (and is still going through) the US immigration
process myself, what I find even more inefficient (and down right sickening) is the
way INS handles and the view INS takes (as well as many other federal agencies) on
illegal immigration.

The State Criminal Alien Assistance Program (SCAAP) - which provides federal
assistance to states incurring costs of incarcerating illegal aliens - had to shell
out something like 600 million dollars to the state of California alone (California
citizens also had to pick up some of the tab on this as well). That is 1 state and
only for 1 particular problem of illegal immigration. You can easily see how the
dollar figure spent on illegal immigration is in the billions, and again, only for
that 1 particular problem. Illegal immigration causes many other problems as well
(Medical care for example).

The inefficiency is a monetary one, in that these federal agencies seem perfectly
content to spend money by reacting to the problems illegal immigration causes but
don't see any need from stopping it from happening in the first place.

What's even worse, is that you, along with almost everyone else on here, immigrated
legally; we paid our fee's, we waited days upon days for answers from INS, we have
been seperated from our loved ones while our lives were scrutinized in detail, we
have been subject to INS's inefficiencies, we have done all that is asked of us from
INS. What do we get in return? The knowledge that our tax dollars, at our new US
jobs, are funding illegal immigrants (somewhat of a slap in the face to those of us
who immigrated legally). There lies the real inefficiency in my opinion.

I love the US, and its views on many things. But I do not like what I see in terms of
illegal immigration. It seems to me that it is condoned in many areas of the US. With
section 245(i), it is obviously condoned by congress as well.

Also, other countries governments are indeed inefficient. It is not a problem that
only exists in the US. It is hard to find a government agency that runs at 100%
efficiency.

DJ

Just Jenney

Aaaah!! I was waiting for someone to open a thread on this topic!!

We haven't even started the K1 process itself -- still in the research and preparation phase -- but from reading about dozens of personal experiences with the K1 process (and beyond), it AMAZES ME how incredibly inconsistent the INS is!!

I can somewhat understand the backlog in processing applications. There are tons of people trying to obtain visas to enter the States, for a variety of reasons. What I CANNOT understand is how different each couple's experiences can be from one another, even in the most straightforward cases.

Among other things I've discovered:

~ Some people can open up provisional files before the I-129F petition has been approved, while others have to wait for the I-129F to be approved, while others have to wait for the approval to be physically received by the consulate

~ Some people need only one tax return to accompany the I-134, while others need three tax returns, while others need none

~ Some people are asked lots of personal questions in their K1 interview, while others are not

~ Some visa officers choose to look at the relationship evidence quite closely, while others do not

~ Some people get an EAD card at the POE, while others only get an I-94 work authorization stamp, while others don't get either -- even at the same airport

Why isn't there a standard procedure followed?? It varies from consulate to consulate, local INS office to local INS office, INS officer to INS officer. Wouldn't it be so much easier for everyone involved -- the couples as well as the INS employees themselves -- if there was a standard procedure which everyone had to follow? I'm so baffled by how absolutely random this process seems to be!!

I went through another kind of immigration process (work visa) myself in Chile -- talk about a nightmare of red tape and bureaucracy!! The Chilean Aduana (Immigration) was so inefficient and poorly-run, they wouldn't even tell you what documentation you needed in order to complete the visa process!!

You had to arrive at the Aduana building in downtown Santiago before 6.30am and slowly work your way up into the building, squeezed in a TINY corridor (the only one) with about a million other people (and about 4 chairs). There were little rooms off to the sides, about six in total, with NO SIGNS as to which one you needed to go in for your particular visa needs. (Sometimes you discover after an hour or two that you're in the wrong queue-- they all blend together in the corridor -- and have to go back to the end of the correct queue.)

Then, after standing in the queue for about 3-4 hours, you FINALLY got to a table with an Aduana officer and nervously handed over your paperwork -- only to be told you were missing document "A" and you'd have to come back tomorrow and start all over again.

So you timidly and politely ask if you could please have an official list of EVERYTHING you need to apply for this particular visa, so you don't leave anything out next time. You were met with a cold, blank stare and told, "You can't have that list. That is for official purposes only." WHAT?!?! So you returned the next day with document "A" and went through the whole ordeal again, finally get to the table with a different Aduana officer from the day before, who tells you, sorry, you're missing document "B" and that you have to return tomorrow!!

And it goes on and on and on......... Of course, this was before the internet really took off -- who knows if things have changed and if this information is as readily available today online as the US visa procedures.

God help me if our K1 experience is even half as bad as that!!!

~ Jenney

beyness

I completely agree, it's almost enough to make you want to never live in the US again... but alas. It's not just the US though, it's Embassies, consulates and Immigration all over the world. We've dealt with Consulates and Embassies in Nepal, Vietnam, and India which were 80 million times as bad, but I think you expect that because you're in 3rd world countries! With the US, Canada, UK, you expect an efficiently run government! I think they're just fooling us all, putting on a front when they really don't have a CLUE what they are doing... why else would so many forms go missing and so much go wrong...

Woe is us!

Tash

Toby Everett

Jenney &amp; Mark <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > Aaaah!! I was waiting for someone to open a thread on this topic!!
    >
    > We haven't even started the K1 process itself -- still in the research and
    > preparation phase -- but from reading about dozens of personal experiences with the
    > K1 process (and beyond), it AMAZES ME how incredibly inconsistent the INS is!!
Something to keep in mind is that you're dealing with two agencies, quartered under
different departments of the executive branch. INS is part of the US Department of
Justice (which puts it under Ashcroft). The embassies and consulates are part of the
State Department (which puts it under Powell).

When I first started this process, I spoke with a very helpful immigration attorney
who explained that these two departments frequently interpret the same laws in two
ways. For instance, the State Department (which handles visa applications - note that
the I-129F is not a visa application, but a petition to permit your fiance(e) to
submit a visa application, for the most part, believes that it is perfectly
conceivable that a foreigner might want to visit the United States to visit a
significant other (as a tourist) with the intent to decide whether or not the
relationship is strong enough that they might want to immigrate. However, the INS
(for the most part) can choose to believe that is absolutely inconceivable that
anyone could ever have anything other than 100% immigrant intent if they come to the
US to visit a significant other. And everything is up for grabs at the Port of Entry
- the INS can amend, ignore, or accept the State Department's issued visa as they
wish. As I understand it, the two departments don't always see eye to eye, which
makes things even more complicated.

With that in mind, I'll shed what light I can on your issues

    > ~ Some people can open up provisional files before the I-129F petition has been
    > approved, while others have to wait for the I-129F to be approved, while others
    > have to wait for the approval to be physically received by the consulate
This is decided on a consulate by consulate basis. Note that this has nothing to do
with the INS - this is purely a decision by individual consulates, which fall under
the State Department.

    > ~ Some people need only one tax return to accompany the I-134, while others need
    > three tax returns, while others need none
I'm guessing this also has to do with the current state of employment of the person
applying. As I understand it, you submit an I-134 both during the visa application
process (which is handled by the State Department) and during the Adjustment of
Status (which is handled by the INS).

    > ~ Some people are asked lots of personal questions in their K1 interview, while
    > others are not
This is one of those human variability questions. I've entered Canada five summers in
a row for the Vancouver Folk Music Festival. Four out of those five times, they asked
me a few questions and welcomed me into the country. The fifth time they asked me if
I was meeting anyone - I mentioned a childhood friend who was driving up from
Seattle. They wanted to know how long I'd known him, what he did for a living. They
asked me questions for about five minutes before deciding I just got flustered
easily. Just remember, "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!" Again, this is a
State Department thing, not an INS thing

    > ~ Some visa officers choose to look at the relationship evidence quite closely,
    > while others do not
State Department thing, not an INS thing.

    > ~ Some people get an EAD card at the POE, while others only get an I-94 work
    > authorization stamp, while others don't get either -- even at the same airport
This does happen to be an INS thing!

    > Why isn't there a standard procedure followed?? It varies from consulate to
    > consulate, local INS office to local INS office, INS officer to INS officer.
    > Wouldn't it be so much easier for everyone involved -- the couples as well as the
    > INS employees themselves -- if there was a standard procedure which everyone had to
    > follow? I'm so baffled by how absolutely random this process seems to be!!
Agreed, but it's a _huge_ system. It would make more sense for there to be less
variation in the INS system than in the State Department system. All of the INS stuff
(with the exception of pre-clearing US customs at certain Canadian airports) is done
in the United States (which explains why it's under the US Department of Justice).
The State Department embassies and consulates are in almost every country on the
planet, and as such I would maintain that allowing for a degree of local autonomy is
probably a good thing, in-so-far as it allows the embassies to adapt to local
conditions better. If there is local autonomy in how the embassy or consulate as a
whole functions, there is likely to be local autonomy in how the consular section
functions.

    > I went through another kind of immigration process (work visa) myself in Chile --
    > talk about a nightmare of red tape and bureaucracy!! The Chilean Aduana
    > (Immigration) was so inefficient and poorly-run, they wouldn't even tell you what
    > documentation you needed in order to complete the visa process!!
My sister's favorite tale has to do with the Ukrainian consulate in St. Petersburg
(Russia, not Florida. She was spending time with friends in St. Petersburg and
wanted to take the train to Chisinau, Moldova, to visit another group of friends.
Unfortunately, the train tracks go through the Ukraine, and a number of years ago
they changed things so that people who don't hold a former Soviet Republic passport
need a transit visa to take that train. That holds even if they never even get off
the train (although that makes a certain amount of sense). Anyway, she went to apply
for the transit visa at the Ukrainian consulate. She spent a day in line and never
even got close. On the second day, she managed to get to the desk and they gave her
some paperwork to fill out and told her to come back with it tomorrow. She very
politely asked if she could fill it out there and leave it with them. She explained
that she understood that they wouldn't be able to look at it until tomorrow, but that
way she could avoid the whole taking-the-bus-all-over-St.-Petersburg-thing as well as
the standing-in-a-huge-mess-of-shoving-people-in-what-we-wouldn't-exactly-call-a-lin-
e-for-hours-on-end-thing. His response? "Your trip depends on our transit visa. Our
transit visa does not depend on your trip." She very carefully bit her tongue,
smiled, and departed.

--Toby Everett

Rete

Paul

[email protected] (Ade Shell) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > I 100% agree with you! No other place of business in this country could operate as
    > poorly as the INS and get away with it! They are accountable to no one!

I agree with him, but maybe not 100%, at least not in terms of the INS.

One factor that I think causes participants in this NG to be so hypercritical of the
agency is that we consider ourselves to be the "average" customers. I would guess
that if everyone who submitted documents to the INS was as computer savvy, educated,
articulate, not to mention honest, as the participants in this NG, then the INS would
function much more efficiently. But they aren't. We filed my wife's I-485 petition at
Arlington. Fortunately, I only had the pleasure of sitting in the waiting room for an
extended period one time. Out of about 200-225 people, I would guess that I was one
of a handful of native, English-speaking USCs there. I could witness the frustration
of the INS personnel trying to communicate with unprepared, non-English speaking,
unrepresented petitioners, many of whom seemed to think that stubbornness was their
best strategy to compensate for a lack of documentation. If this case with the
walk-in crowd, I would bet the petitions mailed to them are a processing nightmare.

I am not naive. I've experienced bungling on the part of the INS, including lost
files, elephantine waiting periods, and unhelpful staff. I welcome any efforts to
reform its operations. But unless part of the reform includes a massive investment in
free linguistic and legal assistance -- and I'm not holding my breath on this --
there is always going to be a built-in monkey wrench in the system.

Finally, as to your statement that it is accountable to no one, the numerous stories
in this NG about decisions reversed after congressional or administrative appeal
belie this.

Just Jenney

To Tobey and Rete... Thanks for your explanations to my points in my previous post (especially Tobey, very thoughtful response). You are right that part of the process falls under the Dept of State, while part of it falls under the INS.

However, BOTH agencies are part of the United States government. The fact that some portions of the process are handled by one agency and other portions are handled by another doesn't negate the fact that the process seems pretty random in certain respects. It doesn't explain why there's no standard procedure which is followed (by EITHER agency).

If BOTH agencies followed a standard procedure for their respective responsibilities in the K1 (or whatever) visa process, then there would be much less inefficiency and confusion for both visa applicants and government employees alike. This is obviously a case of the right hand not knowing (or caring) what the left hand is doing -- even though it takes BOTH hands to get the job done.

~ Jenney

Andy Platt

"Paul" <[email protected]> wrote ...

    > One factor that I think causes participants in this NG to be so hypercritical of
    > the agency is that we consider ourselves to be the "average" customers. I would
    > guess that if everyone who submitted documents to the INS was as computer savvy,
    > educated, articulate, not to mention honest, as the participants in this NG, then
    > the INS would function much more efficiently. But they aren't. We filed my wife's
    > I-485 petition at Arlington. Fortunately, I only had the pleasure of sitting in the
    > waiting room for an extended period one time. Out of

I remember our filing experience at Arlington. There were six other I-130/I-485
couples "ahead" of us the morning we filed. Not a single one of them was done in less
than half an hour and many had to go off and get additional stuff. We were done in
ten minutes. Personally I think they should stamp the application with a "process
this one quickly" for all of us efficient newsgroup applicants!!!

Andy.

--
I'm not really here - it's just your warped imagination.

Seattle483

'She has no clue what she is talking about, YES YOU CAN APPLY o\n\nI was lucky with the i-751 and tsc, I filed on jan18th 2002 and had the \"conditions\nremoved letter around March 9th\" and had the card about a week later, took about 7\nweeks from start to finish. What in the world have they done with your application to\ntake this long, I feel for you, I really do. Take care\n\nSean n Lisa UK/US\n\n\"Ade Shell\" <[email protected]> wrote in message\nnews:[email protected]\"]news:[email protected][/url]...\n    > HI Everyone! I posted last week about my I-751 frustrations. Long story short,\n    > filed in\n2000\n    > at TSC, still no interview.\n    >\n    > We lined up today in Altanta at 4:30am to finally talking to someone\naround\n    > 8:30am. She said that they are moving the I-751\'s to a different room\nright\n    > now, and it will be a few weeks till they can find anyone\'s I-751\'s! She\nsaid\n    > for us to come back in a few weeks. She said it as if its the easiest\nthing in\n    > the world, and we live just down the block! We live 5 hours away in\nSavannah,\n    > have to kennel dogs, pay for hotel, take off work, stand in line at wee\nhours\n    > in morning. Arghh!\n    >\n    > My question in everyone who answered my last post said you could file N400 while\n    > I-751 is pending. The lady in Atlanta said we could NOT. I was so confused, I said\n    > are you sure? She said you can NOT even apply for N400\nuntil\n    > you get approved with I-751. I said, are you sure we can\'t at least apply\nfor\n    > it now? She said you can\'t apply until I-751 is approved.\n    >\n    > But you all said you can, and I assume it all went ok, and also the 800\nINS\n    > cust service line a few months ago said you could file. I remember the\nlady on\n    > the phone read her guidelines to me and it said if you I-751 is pending\nyou may\n    > still apply. But the official INS lady in Altanta said we couldn\'t???\nHelp!\n    >\n    > Also, I said 2 years is a long time for a I-751 I heard. She said it is\nnot,\n    > they are backlogged from 98 and in the computer we are concidered \"new\"\nmeaning\n    > 2000 people who filed for I-751 and its in Atlanta is \"new\" and will be a\nlong\n    > long time.\n    >\n    > Sorry for babbling on, I really appreciate all of you who read and answer\nmy\n    > posts! It really helps to hear from people who have been through this, and\nknow\n    > what is going on. INS always tells you something different.\n    >\n    > SO I guess my 2 main Q\'s are do you think we should go back in a few\nweeks,\n    > take off work, hotel, kennel dogs and so on, or do you think we will get\nthe\n    > run around again\n    >\n    > Also can you file N400 when I-751 is pending?\n    >\n    > Thanks sooo much! \n'

Marc Sil

When it comes to funding the INS the funding for enforcement comes from our tax $$
throguh Congress. All of the immigration, visa, and naturalisation aspects of the INS
are supposed to be revenue nutural. My suspition is that a good deal of the funds
from our fees get shuffled over to the enforcement side. This is the silent issue
when thoe in Congress discus splitting up the agency. If this is inded happening it
is nothing other than simple theft of our money!

cbernard

...and now that the INS is falling under control of the 'department of homeland security' expect even more delays.