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OT: What Are Your Thoughts On The Two Proposed Illegal Alien Immigration Bills

OT: What Are Your Thoughts On The Two Proposed Illegal Alien Immigration Bills

Old Aug 23rd 2005, 11:42 pm
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Default OT: What Are Your Thoughts On The Two Proposed Illegal Alien Immigration Bills

Our local newspaper had an article in today's paper about the large undocumented/illegal immigrants in Westchester County, New York and the two proposed immigration bills.

Since the members of this forum like to debate, I thought you might like to read and comment on the proposed bills.

I ask only that you keep your comments clean, without name calling or racial remarks. Any posts that are offensive will be deleted. Everyone is entitled to their thoughts, opinions and feelings and this is not the thread to lambaste them for it.

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/p...508230319/1018

BTW this thread is not being sent to the Usenet.

Last edited by Rete; Aug 24th 2005 at 1:01 am.
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Old Aug 23rd 2005, 11:53 pm
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Default Re: OT: What Are Your Thoughts On The Two Proposed Illegal Alien Immigration Bills

I think one thing is certain: if there are repeated amnesties/concessions/de-criminalisations of illegals, then it will increase illegal immigration, even in there is a corresponding increase in legal avenues for immigration. If the perceived bar to getting a foot in the door, followed by legalisation is lowered, more people will come here illegally, period.

I'm not saying that this is good or bad: just that it will happen. This will be a consequence of the McCain/Kennedy SAOI Act.

Interesting to see the AZ senators (both R) on different sides of the fence, though...

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Old Aug 24th 2005, 12:21 am
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Default Re: OT: What Are Your Thoughts On The Two Proposed Illegal Alien Immigration Bills

Rete,

Thanks for posting the link. This is a very interesting article and topic. Since we are on this topic, here is a link to more detail comparison of the two bills, for anyone who is interested: http://www.shusterman.com/pdf/mccainvscornyn.pdf

Thanks,

Julia.
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Old Aug 24th 2005, 1:07 am
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Default Re: OT: What Are Your Thoughts On The Two Proposed Illegal Alien Immigration Bills

Originally Posted by Rete
Our local newspaper had an article in today's paper about the large undocumented/illegal immigrants in Westchester County, New York and the two proposed immigration bills.
Illegal immigration is always a sticky subject to tackle. Personally, I and my wife lean to the conservative side of the specrum on that topic. During our AOS process, she felt it was extremely unfair that it took nearly three years for the government to adjust me to a resident having done everything by the book, yet those who swim to our shores, or sneak across the border can often have that privilige handed to them on a platter. I agree with her.

Their lack of taxable income creates a burden on the systems social services on a federal, state and city level; their children, who wouldn't be in the country otherwise, tax an already strained education system. It is sad however that their children can become citizens, but they cannot.

McCain's SAOI bill sounds O.K, but I don't see many illegal immigrant families, who I doubt are awash with cash, being able to pay the fees, and of course, back taxes on the work they've done. It'll be interesting seeing them provide proof of that - there's likely no tax returns, and I doubt the employer has payroll records of them.

People always say they do the jobs noone else would want to. While in some cases that is true, it's not the rule. I work for Goodwill, and there are plenty of needy people with legal status who would kill for even a menial $6/7-hr job to give them a sense of focus in their life and to start climbing the career ladder. Of course, then you have the third generation welfare families, etc, that don't want to work at all. This is the part of the employment puzzle some illegal immigrants fill.

Basically, it boils down to this tenet: They're called illegal immigrants for a reason: because they reside here illegally. I'm all for migrating for a better life, but if circumstances prevent you from moving where you want to legally, then perhaps you should look elsewhere. It's not an excuse to break the law.
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Old Aug 24th 2005, 1:51 am
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Default Re: OT: What Are Your Thoughts On The Two Proposed Illegal Alien Immigration Bills

For myself, I'm of two minds on the subject. I once was a "round them up and ship them out" person. We did things by the book, followed the rules, went through emotional and financial hardships to be together. I would look at the paper and read about people in under developed countries or places such as China or Central America whose families would beg, borrow or steal the money to pay Snakeheads, Coyotes or whomever to sneak them into the country through the desert or in the hulls of ships or cargo containers without food, water or sanitary facilities. I would think "Damn, if they can find the money to pay thousands of dollars to be snuck into the country why the hell can't they use that money to get here legally?"

Some of my thoughts on that have changed as I've read and tried to open my mind to their lives and what they were hoping to accomplish in the US for themselve and for their families. I read how they come here and work and live 5, 6, 12 in an apartment. How they take any type of work they can to make a living whether it is busing tables or off the book contract work as day labors. I can see and acknowledge their hard work but then I cringe when I read they are sending $500 or more back home a month. If they can afford to send that kind of money home it makes me wonder just what they have earned illegally to live here and yet part with $500 that for many of us would mean the difference between medical care, a movie and dinner once a month and perhaps a little more added to our retirement funds. It makes me wonder why I have to work and pay taxes to the federal, state and city governments to live here while they can take that tax money and send it back to a foreign country which in turn only helps that foreign country and does nothing that I can see for America.

To my way of thinking I see from what I've read and observed here in Westchester that these illegal immigrants are hardworking people and many are very family oriented and other than being illegal aliens they are law abiding. Yet, they have no desire to be American. They are and always will be Mexican, Ecudorian, etc. and will never assimilate to the American dream of our immigrant ancestors. Our ancestors came here to better themselves and to become Americans and remain here and prosper for themselves and their children and grandchildren. They assimilated their language to the majority language of America, English. They put away their country's clothing and stopped wearing the "costumes" of their country. Today's immigrants, particularly the undocumented, do not become a part of what is known as American society. Rather they have by numbers forced American society to adapt to their home country's culture.

Our schools must teach Spanish so their children can learn. Our government's documents must be printed in multiple languages so those who have no inclination to learn English can read about what is going on in our government locally and federally.

I could go on and on but bottom line is why are we rewarding them for coming here and taking our resources, not only money, but our medical care, schools, apartments, parks, jobs that some US citizens and legals earned good wages from as construction workers, what have they given us? While they have taken built miniature cities of their own nationalities where most Americans are fearful of being in the light of day let alone in the dark of night.

Therefore, I would go with the bill that allows them to stay if they can prove they have worked, have paid taxes and can foot the bill for immigration. I believe the majority of them have the money, or will have the money if they stopped sending it home, to do all that is a criteria of the bill.
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Old Aug 24th 2005, 3:02 am
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Default Re: OT: What Are Your Thoughts On The Two Proposed Illegal Alien Immigration Bills

Originally Posted by Rete
I could go on and on but bottom line is why are we rewarding them for coming here and taking our resources, not only money, but our medical care, schools, apartments, parks, jobs that some US citizens and legals earned good wages from as construction workers, what have they given us? While they have taken built miniature cities of their own nationalities where most Americans are fearful of being in the light of day let alone in the dark of night.

Therefore, I would go with the bill that allows them to stay if they can prove they have worked, have paid taxes and can foot the bill for immigration. I believe the majority of them have the money, or will have the money if they stopped sending it home, to do all that is a criteria of the bill.
Rete,

I agree with pretty much everything you say, while also having been in two minds, especially when I was younger. I think that the key issue that you raise that strikes a chord with me is integration into US society.

I spent a lot of time living in NW London, in the London Boroughs of Brent and Harrow, and saw a lot of the Indian and Pakistani immigrant societies there. From around 1972 onwards I saw the nature of the societies change from very insular to being really quite integrated, especially of course, the younger generations, but also the parents, and sometimes the grandparents too. This was very encouraging. A lot of it had to do with economic advantage, but there was also a genuine attempt, as far as I could see, to integrate and become British Asians.

Like you, I don't really see that happening with a lot of the illegals here, and for people who say that that is because they are kept down, well, they are here illegally, by choice (in the main), and that is the situation.

Clearly, life isn't fair (I don't have a Ferrari, while I believe some people have more than one), but I have a good job, a good income, and a comfortable standard of living. That makes me more fortunate than a lot of the illegals, and also than a lot of US-born USCs. Well, that's just life, and breaking the law for economic advantage by entering, living and working illegally in the US is against the law. Does morality enter into it? Well, yes it clearly does in some cases, but people's ideas of "fairness" based on equality of opportunity for everybody are probably not in the same category as moral arguments.

It's a toughie, but it is genreally accepted that nations have the right to choose their own rules, and the US has chosen thus.

If the laws are changed, well, so be it, but right now illegals are illegal, and I'm not sure that I would support the McCain bill as it stands. It seems to me that it would just encourage more illegals, even if it did legitimise some of the illegals already here.

What I would support wholeheartedly would be a bill to comprehensively punish those lard-asses who exploit the illegals. It's not enough to say that because USCs don't want to do the work, there is an implicit right to emply people who will do the work at the wages that people who are disadvantaged will work for. That just keeps the problems from being addressed, and possibly solved or at least ameliorated.
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Old Aug 24th 2005, 12:39 pm
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Default Re: OT: What Are Your Thoughts On The Two Proposed Illegal Alien Immigration Bills

I think you are ignoring the issue of race when you're saying this. YOUR ancestors were most likely white Europeans who did not come here as slaves like the Africans. The immigrants of today are the capitalist 21st century versions of a slave. This is a 2-sided issue; it is not only THEIR choice not to assimilate, but it's also a result of the attitude of the white majority of this country. Do you really think a white suburban town like Westchester would greet a non-white immigrant with open arms? Anyway, this is a digression from the main topic.

I worked my a$$ off to get a worker's visa and have been paying taxes for benefits I might never be able to use, so I'm against them being given worker's visas. This should be evaluated under the current immigration laws and dealt with accordingly. Any new measure will be perceived as some kind of amnesty.

Originally Posted by Rete
To my way of thinking I see from what I've read and observed here in Westchester that these illegal immigrants are hardworking people and many are very family oriented and other than being illegal aliens they are law abiding. Yet, they have no desire to be American. They are and always will be Mexican, Ecudorian, etc. and will never assimilate to the American dream of our immigrant ancestors. Our ancestors came here to better themselves and to become Americans and remain here and prosper for themselves and their children and grandchildren. They assimilated their language to the majority language of America, English. They put away their country's clothing and stopped wearing the "costumes" of their country. Today's immigrants, particularly the undocumented, do not become a part of what is known as American society. Rather they have by numbers forced American society to adapt to their home country's culture.
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Old Aug 24th 2005, 12:52 pm
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Default Re: OT: What Are Your Thoughts On The Two Proposed Illegal Alien Immigration Bills

Originally Posted by Rete
Since the members of this forum like to debate, I thought you might like to read and comment on the proposed bills.
In case anyone is wondering, I am going to stay out of this thread! The subject twitches way too many nerve endings!

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Old Aug 24th 2005, 3:51 pm
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Default Re: OT: What Are Your Thoughts On The Two Proposed Illegal Alien Immigration Bills

Rete,

Nicely written. A few thoughts that you're comments stimulated in me:

Originally Posted by Rete
.... I would think "Damn, if they can find the money to pay thousands of dollars to be snuck into the country why the hell can't they use that money to get here legally?"
Probably the qualification requirements, sponsorship requirements, quotas, and if those hurdles can be overcome the processing time required for the legal routes. The cost to get into the USA legally is the lowest hurdle to overcome.

Originally Posted by Rete
.... It makes me wonder why I have to work and pay taxes to the federal, state and city governments to live here while they can take that tax money and send it back to a foreign country which in turn only helps that foreign country and does nothing that I can see for America.
Agree. To my mind this is one of the strongest drivers towards finding a way to make the illegals legal - so that they will contribute their fair share towards the cost of the benefits that they receive by being here. This may sound like I'm saying, 'so that we can get our hands on their money', and in a sense I am, but as a practical matter given what most illegals earn they aren't going to have to pay much in the way of income taxes and we do already collect consumption taxes from them. What I'm really trying to say is so that they will become more a part of 'the system', one more small step in integrating them rather than segregating them (whether that segregation is self-imposed or is imposed on them).

Originally Posted by Rete
o my way of thinking I see from what I've read and observed here in Westchester that these illegal immigrants are hardworking people and many are very family oriented and other than being illegal aliens they are law abiding. Yet, they have no desire to be American. They are and always will be Mexican, Ecudorian, etc. and will never assimilate to the American dream of our immigrant ancestors. Our ancestors came here to better themselves and to become Americans and remain here and prosper for themselves and their children and grandchildren. They assimilated their language to the majority language of America, English. They put away their country's clothing and stopped wearing the "costumes" of their country. Today's immigrants, particularly the undocumented, do not become a part of what is known as American society. Rather they have by numbers forced American society to adapt to their home country's culture.
Yes, by sheer numbers, and with our acquiescence, they do not seem to be integrating. But it may still be too early to say that they won't. Many of the 1st generation of our European ancesters also did not learn the language, but the 2nd generation was bi-lingual and the 3rd generation was English speaking. The current wave of hispanic immigration hasn't gone that many generations yet.

Originally Posted by Rete
Our schools must teach Spanish so their children can learn. Our government's documents must be printed in multiple languages so those who have no inclination to learn English can read about what is going on in our government locally and federally.
This is a difficult problem, because of the sheer numbers of Spanish speaking immigrants. Some accomodation is needed but I do think that we're going too far. In the schools, for example, requiring Spanish for all students. Requiring a 2nd language is fine, but for many of our children English is the 2nd language and they should be spending the time that they are forced to use learning Spanish to learn English.

Originally Posted by Rete
I could go on and on but bottom line is why are we rewarding them for coming here and taking our resources, not only money, but our medical care, schools, apartments, parks, jobs that some US citizens and legals earned good wages from as construction workers, what have they given us? While they have taken built miniature cities of their own nationalities where most Americans are fearful of being in the light of day let alone in the dark of night.
The problem is, they are forced to do this by the fact that they are illegal. We can go a long way towards resolving this problem by finding a way to make them legal. Many of the 1st generation will stay walled up in their "miniature cities" even if we do give them a route out, but others and succeeding generations will participate more in our society if they are allowed to.

Originally Posted by Rete
Therefore, I would go with the bill that allows them to stay if they can prove they have worked, have paid taxes and can foot the bill for immigration. I believe the majority of them have the money, or will have the money if they stopped sending it home, to do all that is a criteria of the bill.
I'm going to have to read more about what the proposed bills say, but I think that we have to find a way to legalize the people who are already here even if it means ignoring how they got here ('rewarding' them, as many would put it). This is necessary to cure the social ills that result from the large illegal population that exists here. Coupled with this we have got to make legal immigration more readily available and less time consuming, and seal the borders more effectively. The 'forgiveness' won't stimulate more illegal immigration, and sealing the borders against illegal immigration won't be as difficult, if legal immigration is made more achievable.

Regards, JEff
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Old Aug 24th 2005, 4:13 pm
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Default Re: OT: What Are Your Thoughts On The Two Proposed Illegal Alien Immigration Bills

Originally Posted by jeffreyhy
I'm going to have to read more about what the proposed bills say, but I think that we have to find a way to legalize the people who are already here even if it means ignoring how they got here ('rewarding' them, as many would put it). This is necessary to cure the social ills that result from the large illegal population that exists here. Coupled with this we have got to make legal immigration more readily available and less time consuming, and seal the borders more effectively. The 'forgiveness' won't stimulate more illegal immigration, and sealing the borders against illegal immigration won't be as difficult, if legal immigration is made more achievable.

Regards, JEff

Using myself as a base for the average American I would then have to say that the forgiveness is the issue that is most troublesome to Americans and the ramifications that forgiveness will have on future generations of undocumented immigrants.

You need only to read the other US Visa groups and you will see at least once a week someone posting as to when the "next amnesty" will be. Yes, I know it is not an amnesty and you know that. However, to the undocumented it is an amnesty because they are being forgiven and will obtain some way to legalize their presence in the US and perhaps in the long run because PRs and USCs.

While it doesn't happen on a scheduled timeframe, it does happen somewhat regularly and the undocumented and/or illegals know this and have only to wait in the underground until they have their day in the sun.

That is what is very very disturbing.

Last edited by Rete; Aug 24th 2005 at 5:41 pm.
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Old Aug 24th 2005, 5:28 pm
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Default Re: OT: What Are Your Thoughts On The Two Proposed Illegal Alien Immigration Bills

Rete,

Agree that the forgiveness issue is the most troublesome. It is to me also, on an emotional level. But as a practical matter I can't see any other realistic way to cure the social ills that result from the large numbers of undocumented aliens that we now have here - and who are continuing to come. Rounding them up and shipping them home is not a realistic alternative, in my opinion.

As I said, I don't believe that a forgiveness program is going to stimulate future illegal immigration, especially if - and it is a big if - it is coupled with measures to make legal immigration more achievable. Clearly the current situation provides adequate incentives for illegal immigration, based on the numbers that are doing it. I don't see that the additional incentive that might come with a forgiveness program will necessarily produce additional numbers of illegal immigrants. Law of diminishing returns - there is sufficient incentive for illegal immigration already.

I think the key to reducing all of the problems is to create legal immigration policy and procedures that better balances 'supply and demand'. This is what will reduce the incentives for illegal immigration, and reducing incentives is usualy more effective than creating disincentives.

Regards, JEff

Originally Posted by Rete
Using myself as a base for the average American I would then have to say that the forgiveness is the issue that most troublesome to Americans and the ramifications that forgiveness will have on future generations of undocumentation immigrants.

You need only to read the other US Visa groups and you will see at least once a week someone posting as to when the "next amnesty" will be. Yes, I know it is not an amnesty and you know that. However, to the undocumented it is an amnesty because they are being forgiven and will obtain some way to legalize their presence in the US and perhaps in the long run because PRs and USCs.

While it doesn't happen on a scheduled timeframe, it does happen somewhat regularly and the undocumented and/or illegals know this and have only to wait in the underground until they have their day in the sun.

That is what is very very disturbing.
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Old Aug 24th 2005, 8:42 pm
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Default Re: OT: What Are Your Thoughts On The Two Proposed Illegal Alien Immigration Bills

Originally Posted by Rete
Some of my thoughts on that have changed as I've read and tried to open my mind to their lives and what they were hoping to accomplish in the US for themselve and for their families. I read how they come here and work and live 5, 6, 12 in an apartment. How they take any type of work they can to make a living whether it is busing tables or off the book contract work as day labors.
Except for the "coming here" part (since most Americans are already here), the same can be said for poor Americans who struggle to make a living for themselves and their families.

Some also clip coupons, reply on public transportation, can't afford insurance or medical care, can't afford a decent education, etc. It is not just immigrants who struggle to survive in America.
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Old Aug 24th 2005, 9:00 pm
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Default Re: OT: What Are Your Thoughts On The Two Proposed Illegal Alien Immigration Bills

Originally Posted by jeffreyhy
Probably the qualification requirements, sponsorship requirements, quotas, and if those hurdles can be overcome the processing time required for the legal routes. The cost to get into the USA legally is the lowest hurdle to overcome.
Hi Jeff,
One of the most difficult things to have to tell someone after performing a consultation for them (to determine what immigration options they might have) is that there is nothing that they currently qualify for (or under) that would lead to immigrating to the U.S. Like it or not, Congress has set up a system that outlines many immigration benefits people can apply for (and naturally, there are some who don't qualify for anything). So for some, when they have no option they then chose to violate the law.


Originally Posted by jeffreyhy
Agree. To my mind this is one of the strongest drivers towards finding a way to make the illegals legal - so that they will contribute their fair share towards the cost of the benefits that they receive by being here. This may sound like I'm saying, 'so that we can get our hands on their money', and in a sense I am, but as a practical matter given what most illegals earn they aren't going to have to pay much in the way of income taxes and we do already collect consumption taxes from them. What I'm really trying to say is so that they will become more a part of 'the system', one more small step in integrating them rather than segregating them (whether that segregation is self-imposed or is imposed on them).
I rarely deal with individuals who come to me and who entered the U.S. without inspection. I do however recall listening to a lecture at an AILA conference a few years ago that had to do with immigration/taxation crossover issues. I was actually quite surprised to hear said that if someone enters the U.S. and uses a fake social security number (or perhaps someone else’s legitimate SS number) and their wage has a certain amount taken out for Social Security; that individual (who is here illegally) can simply go to the SS office and tell them about it (some time in the future, and I assume with evidence such a pay stubs showing the work performed). The SS office will fix the situation by crediting those SS benefits to the proper party (the illegal worker). I always think about that whenever I hear someone saying something like, “well, they work hard and have SS taken out of their wages but they will never be able to collect it�.

Please note that this was at a lecture a few years back, and I don’t know if that has been changed (again, I don’t deal with those issues in my practice so I’m not really following that).

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Old Aug 24th 2005, 11:19 pm
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Default Re: OT: What Are Your Thoughts On The Two Proposed Illegal Alien Immigration Bills

Originally Posted by Rete
Our local newspaper had an article in today's paper about the large undocumented/illegal immigrants in Westchester County, New York and the two proposed immigration bills.

Since the members of this forum like to debate, I thought you might like to read and comment on the proposed bills.

I ask only that you keep your comments clean, without name calling or racial remarks. Any posts that are offensive will be deleted. Everyone is entitled to their thoughts, opinions and feelings and this is not the thread to lambaste them for it.

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/p...508230319/1018

BTW this thread is not being sent to the Usenet.
One ofmy best friends is from Romania, she is an illegal alien.. so is her Mexican boyfriend, they have a daughter who was born in US soil. She recently applied for a waiver (J1) and got it approved but I know that unless section 254 (i) (?) is enforced again.. She has NO chance to become legal, and that is terribly sad, she hasn't seen her mom in 5 years.. I know many people think that's her fault for overstaying, but she had no future in Romania..
This goes to explain that before meeting my friend I would have probably been against illegals.. unfortunately it isn't so easy.

Last edited by Hypertweeky; Aug 24th 2005 at 11:22 pm.
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Old Aug 24th 2005, 11:45 pm
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Default Re: OT: What Are Your Thoughts On The Two Proposed Illegal Alien Immigration Bills

I've known of that as well for several years. Also there is the factor that the with their fake ssn they are having tax withheld but many cannot claim a refund because of fear of having the fake ssn discovered and their illegal status so those monies are used for over government purposes until someone claims it.

I've known about the right to have the social security withholdings transferred to the right ssn when they become legal and have a real ssn for quite a few years. I discovered that piece of information while reading one day about immigration and illegal workers.

Originally Posted by Matthew Udall
Hi Jeff,
One of the most difficult things to have to tell someone after performing a consultation for them (to determine what immigration options they might have) is that there is nothing that they currently qualify for (or under) that would lead to immigrating to the U.S. Like it or not, Congress has set up a system that outlines many immigration benefits people can apply for (and naturally, there are some who don't qualify for anything). So for some, when they have no option they then chose to violate the law.




I rarely deal with individuals who come to me and who entered the U.S. without inspection. I do however recall listening to a lecture at an AILA conference a few years ago that had to do with immigration/taxation crossover issues. I was actually quite surprised to hear said that if someone enters the U.S. and uses a fake social security number (or perhaps someone else’s legitimate SS number) and their wage has a certain amount taken out for Social Security; that individual (who is here illegally) can simply go to the SS office and tell them about it (some time in the future, and I assume with evidence such a pay stubs showing the work performed). The SS office will fix the situation by crediting those SS benefits to the proper party (the illegal worker). I always think about that whenever I hear someone saying something like, “well, they work hard and have SS taken out of their wages but they will never be able to collect it�.

Please note that this was at a lecture a few years back, and I don’t know if that has been changed (again, I don’t deal with those issues in my practice so I’m not really following that).
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