JuMu

As many of us don't allowed to work right now, maybe here is a way to spend some time in a useful way:

http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=725


Please don't feel offended.
Just thought I had to do at least a little.
JuMu

beyness

Thank you for posting this... I. myself am participating in the Indianapolis peace rally... putting postive energy into any situation can do no harm.

Om Shanti

Paul Wolaver

beyness wrote:

    >Thank you for posting this... I. myself am participating in the
    >Indianapolis peace rally... putting postive energy into any situation
    >can do no harm.
    >Om Shanti

go put some positive energy into Baghdad..... good luck....



    >--
    >Posted via http://britishexpats.com
    >

beyness

It can be done. I've been to Cambodia, India, and Nepal, where absoultely attrocious things have happened and are still happening and the people were happier there than I've seen in a lot of Western countries.... peace and positive energy are very powerful things if people would give them a bit more time and less time to war talk and aggressiveness.

Scout

Pete & I plan to participate in the Atlanta rally today. It's about time we all spoke out.

Cheers,

Leslie

nathan barley

Roll on my right to vote, though I suspect Bush will have been drop-kicked out of office long before then, and replaced by a sensible Democrat (Hilary, we love you )

I also wonder if Tony Blair is going to be able to hold on to another term in offic after this fiasco is over; whats his approval rating in the UK?

Paul Wolaver

    >>go put some positive energy into Baghdad..... good luck...
    >>
    >It can be done. I've been to Cambodia, India, and Nepal, where
    >absoultely attrocious things have happened and are still happening and
    >the people were happier there than I've seen in a lot of Western
    >countries....

I'm not sure what you are saying here... that it is preferable to have
ongoing atrocities, yet everyone is still happy???? This sadly sounds
like "whistling past the graveyard" ...


    >peace and positive energy are very powerful things if
    >people would give them a bit more time and less time to war talk and
    >aggressiveness.
Saddam has had decades....

perhaps they are talking about this more expansively on
"alt.visa.iraq.anyreason" ....

peace without justice is a cynical abandonment of Saddam's historical
and potential victims.

The conundrum of loathing the act of war to stop a despicable leader has
been a problem since, at least, Arjuna sought Krsna's advice because he
was unable to act on what he knew was the right course of action.

The French/German/Russian are notoriously anti semitic, and this finds
expression in their protectionist attitudes towards the Iraqi regime..
this is who you are casting your lot with.


The French might feel differently if the Eiffel Tower was today a hole
in the ground, and they didn't have a $50B oil deal with Saddam...


We all pray for the greater good....

beyness

The Indianapolis Peace rally was filled with such diverse and wide-ranging beliefs and traditions braving the frezzing cold and rain that although my toes were froze I was warm inside. I do not think Saddam is a good man, but I don't think thousand of women, children, and soldiers must die to rid the world of one man... I think there are other ways. I agree that what happened on 9-11 was horrible, but a) I don't believe there is enough proof to connect Iraq with this attack to use this as justification for war with them and b)I don't think the victims or their families want a million MORE people to die in the name of their "revenge".

Just my two cents... everyone is entitled to their opinion. Freedom of speech is a beautiful thing.

nxylas

Lower than it was before this kicked off. Oddly enough, the main benificiaries in the opinion polls seem to be the Tories, who support the war, and not the Liberal Democrats, who don't. Go figure.

JuMu

The only Iraqi people I know, came long ago to Germany for asylum, as they got tortured by the Iraqi regime for their political views. That was at a time when your and our governments were still supporting Sadam Hussein.

Did you know that the Germany is sending antimissile systems to Israel to protect the Israli people from Iraq?
Probably not.
I am tired to be called anti semitic or warmongering all my life.

In school I got tought what big unjustice and cruelty my nation has brought to millions and millions of people.
I feel so sorry and sad about this, I cant tell.

Although it all happened long before my lifetime, I still think we Germans have a special responsibility to do everything to avoid that things like that ever happen again.
This is probably the first time ever I fell good about being a German.

Other than the United States Europe had 2 World Wars on their territory. I remember stories my grandpa told me about being bombed. There are still people alive who remember how it is to find their cities destroyed, watch their family members die.

War can only be a very last way.

I don't believe that there are any honrable reasons to go and bomb Iraq.
I think its revenge and hatred and thirst for oil.
When do you think George W. Bush decided to go and whipe out that country?

http://www.counterpunch.org/leopold01172003.html

....

Greetings
JuMu

Who has never seen so many people like today on the Seattle peace rally. Thanks to all who joined.
There is still hope.

andrewdean

While I do not think war so be thought of ligthly, and I feel sad that many people seem to be in hurry to start one. Particulary when it will be some one else who has to do the fighting.

But this also a country which is still trying to hide weapons and facts from the UN inspectors. Every bit of information has to be forced out of them by the threat of violence.

I do believe that the threat of war is the only thing that is making Iraq cooperate with the UN inspectors.

Yes the west put Saddam into power and supported him when it suited us.

Yes France has oil deals which were done under the UN mandate that allowed Iraq to sell oil for medince and humantarian needs.

And since we helped put this guy in place do we not have some obligation to help set the people of Iraq free from his dictaorship.

The one big thing people are missing is that at the moment because it is not a UN force that will invade Iraq, as in the gulf war. There is a very big danger as this be seen as American bully boy tatics.

Just remember the phrase " Peace in our time "

The biggest question really needs to be once the war is done what then?
Is America prepared to station troops there for the next ten years and pour money into the country in order to rebuild it?

There is no point in winning the war if you lose the peace.

Caro

Disclaimer: I am not defending Saddam Hussein. I just want to rectify what was said.

This is not a real reason for a war... Sorry to remind you that the attrocities are nothing new, and that nobody seemed very concerned about it.

I am not sure why France/Germany and Russia are depicted in the US as antisemitic countries. To speak about what I know, France, there has been a couple inacceptable acts against Synagogues in the past few years that were perpetrated by extermists. This does not reflect however how the entire population feels. It would be like saying that the american hate muslims because after Sept. 11, there were hate crimes perpetrated against muslims and mosques.

It is true that at least France has a foreign policy that is more conscious of the Palestinian problem than the US foreign policy that has a tendency to back Israel no matter what (even when Israel violates UN resolutions). This comes in part from our history where we had colonies in Nothern Africa, Lebanon, and Syria, and from the fact that a growing percentage of the French population is muslim. The supporting the idea of a Palestinian state doesn't mean that the French people are antisemitic, it just means that they think that it would be fair for the Palestinian people to also have a country, which by the way was part of the deal when Israel was created.

Terrorists made a hole in the ground in New-York, it was not Iraq. People have tried hard to find a link between Iraq and terrorists, but they never managed to find a convincing link. I am not defending Iraq, I am just trying to make things correct. Saddam Hussein has never liked religious extremists because they didn't like him and this is partly why there was a war between Iraq and Iran after the islamic revolution in Iran.

Now concerning Iraq, there is no denying that France does have economical interests in Iraq, but do you really think that the US is only interested in the human rights of the Iraqi population? To put bluntly the position of France: Iraq might be a threat and they might have weapons, but a war in this part of the world would be a political disaster, even if it is a military victory (cf. war with Algeria), as it would trigger more hatred against the "West" in the form of terrorist acts and allow more extremism to develop. And, as an analysis in a French newspaper was putting it: Saddam likes his life more than he hates us, whereas Bin laden hates us more than he likes his life. So, Saddam might be a pain in the neck to deal with, but he is, in my opinion at least, a fake target. If you want to fight terrorism, you do not have american soldiers marching in Bagdad. How would people feel if you had Iraqi soldiers marching in Paris, Berlin, London or Washington? Well, that gives you a preview as to how all the arab world might feel about a war with Iraq... Then, what comes after the war? Unless the US/"West" is ready to do something like the Marshall plan with Europe in 1946, it is not going to solve problems. Have you read about Afghanistan? Warlords are still fighting and the future seems very uncertain.

Caroline

Paul Wolaver

    >> The French/German/Russian are notoriously anti semitic, and this finds
    >> expression in their protectionist attitudes towards the Iraqi regime..
    >> this is who you are casting your lot with.
    >>

JuMu....

I gather from your reply that you are a German national.. I don't know if you are currently in Germany, or have emmigrated to the US. I am an American of German extraction.. my Grandparents on my mothers side emmigrated to the US in the early 1900's. On my father's side, we have been in the US since the 1700's - Hessian mercenaries....


    > The only Iraqi people I know, came long ago to Germany for asylum, as
they got tortured by the Iraqi regime for their political views. That
was at a time when your and our governments were still supporting
Sadam Hussein.


we were supporting him because he was seen as the lesser of two evils between Iraq and Ayatollah Khomeni's Iran. I don't think anyone anticipated his regional ambitions of conquest, brutality against his own people, and future alliances with islamo-fascist terrorists.



    > Did you know that the Germany is sending antimissile systems to Israel
to protect the Israli people from Iraq?


what antimissile system is that? I didn't know that Germany had developed an antimissile system? For what reason do they have an anti-missile system? Who would the be concerned about being an enemy??

Is this a NATO system or one owned outright by the German military?

    > Probably not.


I would venture a guess that this is an anti missile system that was sent by the US to Germany in the 1980's to protect you agains the Soviets.. why else would you have an anti missle system???

So, rather than hearing any expression of gratitide to the US, for wasting our national treasure to protect *your* ungrateful ass, what we get instead is a bunch of weaklings and sissies who are fully prepared to believe the most transparent and distorted propaganda that is served up by the leftists and bleating press. You not only cave in and are immediately prepared to believe this crap, but you are now going over to the other side, and supporting an islamic dictator with a history of large scale crimes against humanity.


    > I am tired to be called anti semitic or warmongering all my life.

JuMu, you are running that risk when you decide to cast your lot in with people who are sympathetic to Saddam Hussien.... it's unfortunate that your people (mine too, really), continue to to be held accountable for the actions of two generations ago, but it's going to take centuries for that episode to be forgotten. Nothing you or I can do about the reality of that.

    > In school I got tought what big unjustice and cruelty my nation has
brought to millions and millions of people.
I feel so sorry and sad about this, I cant tell.

Well, MuJi, injustice and cruelty inflicted upon our fellow man is the story of the history of humanity. The only real difference here is that the victors of WWII recorded it all on film and photographs, and your people were held accountable. The German people, too, have been victimized in the course of history ... the Romans, the goths, the mongolians, the vikings, the allied mass bombings of the 1940s..... Don't hang your head about this MuJu... it's the story of humanity, and not the unique experience of the German people.

I hope that what they really taught you was how easily populations are duped by propaganda. *nobody* is immune from this. Your people were manipulated by master propagandists into believing that doing the most savage things, were OK... mass hypnosis, mass hysteria, mass indoctrination. It happened to your people before in the 1930's, and it is happening to them again, with this anti-American disinformation that the left-sympathising press loves to control you with. You are being manipulated, again..... But this time, rather than it being done by National Socialists.. it is being done by International Socialists... either one are perfectly willing to distort the truth, and manipulate *your* mind, in order to achieve their objectives.. they have no conscience about this *at all* ......



    > Although it all happened long before my lifetime, I still think we
Germans have a special responsibility to do everything to avoid that
things like that ever happen again.


Things like what? to avoid being duped and manipulated again? Or to be aggresive and (gasp) violent in protecting your culture?

One of the things that we always have coming up, in our country, when someone is naieve enough to say "all violence is unjustified".... one of the common retorts is "would it have been justified to violently stop Hitler in the early 1930s?????" By exercising some wisely applied violence back then, we could have prevented the unspeakable horrors, who's echoes are a part of your national heritage. So... do you still maintain that there is no justification for violence? SOme madmen need to be dealt with violently.. it's the only thing they understand or respect.


    > This is probably the first time ever I fell good about being a German.

MuJu, you have been duped by the press, by the greens, by the Anti-American propaganda of the leftists of the world, that preventing violence against Saddam's regime is somehow a noble thing. This monster has to be stopped now. He is a vile tyrant, and nothing but further horrors can be realized from his continuance in power.

I don't know how you are missing this connection between Saddam, and terrorism and regional Islamic violence.

In a recent exercise of violence, in the name of peace... we (the US, and NATO), bombed the hell out of Serbia, and then occupied it. In doing that, we stopped another dictator, a despicable tyrant, from continuing his program of violece and murder against islamics.... should we have *not* done this? Should we withdraw and let Serbian violence resume?

Intervention, violent intervention, has its place.



    >Other than the United States Europe had 2 World Wars on their territory.
I remember stories my grandpa told me about being bombed. There are
still people alive who remember how it is to find their cities
destroyed, watch their family members die.

Well, MuJu, on September 11, 2001, we watched NYC being bombed, and thousands of people die. We're doing what we can to prevent that from happening again. We *do* make a connection between Saddam Hussein, and islamic terrorism....



In 1989, we watched Saddam invade Kuwait, and the Kuwaiti people watched *their* family members die... who was responsible for this?? SH - Saddam Hussein. If we had not stopped him, he would have conquered SAudi Arabia, and most of the Persian Gulf States.... do you doubt this at all??? We made a blunder in 1991 of not taking him out... we're going to correct that error now....

    > War can only be a very last way.

I would much rather it be on our terms, now, than a nuclear-capable SH in the near future...


    > I don't believe that there are any honrable reasons to go and bomb Iraq.

it's not just "bombing Iraq" ... it's takeing out SH.... our 1991 bombing campaign was amazingly respectful of civilians.. unlike SH...

    > I think its revenge and hatred and thirst for oil.

I think you have been told that, and you have been duped into believing that that is the case. What has led you to the conclusion that this is Geo Bush's motivation? You have been manipulated into believing this... I would challange you to come up with the tiniest bit of proof to support this unconscionable personal attack on a decent and courageous leader. You are just parroting something that someone has told you is the case.

there is no question whatsoever that SH has been in continuous and egregious violation of the 1991 UN resolutions... he is flaunting the entire world, not just the US. It's just that the US is the only country with the testicality to stand up to him.



    > When do you think George W. Bush decided to go and whipe out that
country?

Sept 11, 2001....

And, b the way... there is no plan, whatsoever, to "wipe out" Iraq.

When did you come to the conclusion that his is GWB's motivation??? I don't think you came to this conclusion on your own.. I think it was something that someone told you....

I think that describing this as GWB's motivation is a pathetic distortion of the facts. What GWB, and the US is getting ready to do, is a noble sacrifice of putting our young soldiers in harms way, to, ultimately, protect *your* way of life in Europe.. Just as we have done for the last 50 years.. protecting you from the Soviet threat.. we now take the responsibility to protect our selves, and the western world, from the threat of islamic fundamentalism. Has the US been an occupying army in Germany,or a genuine friend and partner? have we extracted war reparations from you????? Did we treat you the way the Soviets treated you in East Germany, and the rest of Europe??? No... it is not our way... we are not a conquering country, we are a protecting country. We were right about the Soviets, we are right about the islamic radicals.

Wake up and smell the coffee, MuJu, or one day you might wake up and find yourself breathing the fallout of an islamic Bomb.





http://www.counterpunch.org/leopold01172003.html

...

Greetings
JuMu

    > Who has never seen so many people like today on the Seattle peace rally.


I have seen that many people in the anti-war protests in the US in the 1960s. They were *wrong* about the communists back then, they are *wrong* about the islamicists now.

Your grandparents *saw* so many people in the nazi rallys in the 1930s... just because there were a lot of people who believed some crazy ideas, it didn't make them right.. think about it MuJu, think about it... people have this crazy way of being duped, and then participating in mob behaviour.. it's a kind of herd-mentality.. groupe-thinke .... it's pathetic...


Thanks to all who joined.
There is still hope.

There is still a delusional fantasy about SH being harmless.....

nxylas

Like an International Criminal Court for example. But the US government opposed that, no doubt at the behest of the military-industrial complex.

nxylas

It seems some people are more susceptible to government propaganda than others.