Notre Dame de Paris is Burning
#46
Re: Notre Dame de Paris is Burning
It makes one think of the era in which the cathedral was originally constructed, when people would spend their entire lifetime laboring on such a building, often passing their skills from father to son -- and never seeing the completed product. The same can be said of maintaining -- and now saving and restoring -- the great buildings of Europe. If you've got the right skills it is a life-long job and very much a labor of love.
#47
Re: Notre Dame de Paris is Burning
It may be months before the restorers are able to get close, inspecting and assessing the safety of the structure may take weeks, and the fact that the roof is open to the weather may lead to substantial additional damage before the roof can be covered over even temporarily.
It makes one think of the era in which the cathedral was originally constructed, when people would spend their entire lifetime laboring on such a building, often passing their skills from father to son -- and never seeing the completed product. The same can be said of maintaining -- and now saving and restoring -- the great buildings of Europe. If you've got the right skills it is a life-long job and very much a labor of love.
Notre Dame's spire was actually an 18th century restoration, since the medieval one had been deemed unsafe and was dismantled. The restorers then replicated the medieval structure though, using oak.
#48
Re: Notre Dame de Paris is Burning
Was the original spire made of stone? If the oak wasn't even historically accurate it wouldn't surprise me if the new one will have a steel frame.
#49
Re: Notre Dame de Paris is Burning
If I understand correctly, it was a combination and that combination was a replica of the medieval construction.
#50
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Joined: Mar 2017
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Re: Notre Dame de Paris is Burning
If not able to go down the traditional timber framing route then Glulam would be miles better than steel. Much better, aesthetically, very strong & better resistance to heat & fire.
#51
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Re: Notre Dame de Paris is Burning
An example of Glulam in a restoration scenario -
#52
Re: Notre Dame de Paris is Burning
From today's pictures, it seems as though much of the interior of the cathedral was protected by the ceiling vault. The only section of the vaulting that has collapsed is the bit under the nave crossing, which was presumably brought down by the falling spire. The separation of the interior of the building from the roof structure by the vaulted ceiling would also account for the lack of apparent damage to the pulpit, altar and pews at ground level, and probably played a part in the survival of some of the stained glass too.
Finding enough oak of suitable dimensions will be a challenge. Finding masons and carpenters with the skills to effect repairs will be challenging but not insurmountable - there've been enough post-fire reconstruction of historic buildings in recent times that techniques have been rediscovered and re-learned (a fine example being the green oak hammerbeam roof in St George's Hall at Windsor Castle, which was a brand-new design in 1994 rather than a restoration of a previous structure). And in France itself, of course, just 30km or so south of Paris, is the "experimental archaeology" build of Guedelon Castle, which ought to have produced a wealth of knowledge concerning the original construction methods of such a roof structure in Medieval times, and a fair smattering of artisans who now know how to build one.
Finding enough oak of suitable dimensions will be a challenge. Finding masons and carpenters with the skills to effect repairs will be challenging but not insurmountable - there've been enough post-fire reconstruction of historic buildings in recent times that techniques have been rediscovered and re-learned (a fine example being the green oak hammerbeam roof in St George's Hall at Windsor Castle, which was a brand-new design in 1994 rather than a restoration of a previous structure). And in France itself, of course, just 30km or so south of Paris, is the "experimental archaeology" build of Guedelon Castle, which ought to have produced a wealth of knowledge concerning the original construction methods of such a roof structure in Medieval times, and a fair smattering of artisans who now know how to build one.
#53
Peace onion
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: Denver
Posts: 5,686
Re: Notre Dame de Paris is Burning
Interesting timing. Macron was due to give a speech regarding the Yellow Vest protests.
It's the Reichstag fire 2; Hunchback Boogaloo, I'm telling you. Bring everyone together. Well, I'm not sending a centime. Arrogant Frenchies, always starting wars and invasions and blowing up eco weenies.
I've only ever been in a Catholic cathedral once, for Christmas mass with an ex-girlfriend. It was a lot of fun and I loved the kids singing. Everything being threes.
But what is it with all these icons and relics being ensconced in gold or gold paint material?
It's ostentatious and gaudy, surely totally at odds with what Jesus would have been about? Indiana Jones and the last Crusade got it right with the simple wooden goblet, methinks.
I can't even imagine all the excess at the Vatican. Truly mind boggling.
It's the Reichstag fire 2; Hunchback Boogaloo, I'm telling you. Bring everyone together. Well, I'm not sending a centime. Arrogant Frenchies, always starting wars and invasions and blowing up eco weenies.
I've only ever been in a Catholic cathedral once, for Christmas mass with an ex-girlfriend. It was a lot of fun and I loved the kids singing. Everything being threes.
But what is it with all these icons and relics being ensconced in gold or gold paint material?
It's ostentatious and gaudy, surely totally at odds with what Jesus would have been about? Indiana Jones and the last Crusade got it right with the simple wooden goblet, methinks.
I can't even imagine all the excess at the Vatican. Truly mind boggling.
Last edited by Octang Frye; Apr 16th 2019 at 9:18 pm.
#54
Re: Notre Dame de Paris is Burning
If you're saying that a structural plywood beam is more resistant to heat and fire than steel then I would appreciate it if you can provide sources for this assertion as it appears implausible at face value and I haven't been able to find any studies that support such a conclusion, and if not, please can you explain how a plywood beam is "better than steel".
#56
Re: Notre Dame de Paris is Burning
Advocating for something that "looks like genuine solid timber" would be pretty much pointless, like suggesting that the roof trusses in your home should be make of high quality hardwoods. Which was why I said that the replacement should be steel, because it is strong, does not require the felling of numerous mature oaks, and is entirely non-combustible.
#57
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: Notre Dame de Paris is Burning
Timber of that size and number is very likely unavailable, well not in the sheer volume needed.
5 years to rebuild seems very optimistic.
5 years to rebuild seems very optimistic.
#58
Re: Notre Dame de Paris is Burning
But if you look at the pictures, the timber appears to have made a frame to support the roof, and then underneath the timber frame is a vaulted ceiling, so all the timber is entirely out of sight of the people inside the cathedral, like the roof trusses in your home.
Advocating for something that "looks like genuine solid timber" would be pretty much pointless, like suggesting that the roof trusses in your home should be make of high quality hardwoods. Which was why I said that the replacement should be steel, because it is strong, does not require the felling of numerous mature oaks, and is entirely non-combustible.
Advocating for something that "looks like genuine solid timber" would be pretty much pointless, like suggesting that the roof trusses in your home should be make of high quality hardwoods. Which was why I said that the replacement should be steel, because it is strong, does not require the felling of numerous mature oaks, and is entirely non-combustible.
So, in that case, they could use any material, with preference given to non-combustible lightweight but suitably strong materials
#59
Re: Notre Dame de Paris is Burning
Here's a picture, showing that some of the vaulted ceiling of Notre Dame has survived even where the timber roof supports above have burned away and/or collapsed.
Last edited by Pulaski; Apr 17th 2019 at 2:14 am.
#60
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Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 0
Re: Notre Dame de Paris is Burning
But if you look at the pictures, the timber appears to have made a frame to support the roof, and then underneath the timber frame is a vaulted ceiling, so all the timber is entirely out of sight of the people inside the cathedral, like the roof trusses in your home.
Advocating for something that "looks like genuine solid timber" would be pretty much pointless, like suggesting that the roof trusses in your home should be make of high quality hardwoods. Which was why I said that the replacement should be steel, because it is strong, does not require the felling of numerous mature oaks, and is entirely non-combustible.
Advocating for something that "looks like genuine solid timber" would be pretty much pointless, like suggesting that the roof trusses in your home should be make of high quality hardwoods. Which was why I said that the replacement should be steel, because it is strong, does not require the felling of numerous mature oaks, and is entirely non-combustible.
Steel is great for shopping malls, factories and aircraft hangars.
Last edited by scrubbedexpat142; Apr 17th 2019 at 8:06 am.