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Let's talk about cars

Let's talk about cars

Old Jul 10th 2013, 3:20 am
  #121  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
If you were correct, then EVs would have already been popular. EV fans always make this claim, yet they can't prove it with the figures that count the most: sales volumes.
Here we go again...

"In the first three months of 2013, Tesla sold 4,750 sedans while Mercedes sold 3,077 of the S-class, BMW sold 2,338 of the 7-series and Audi sent 1,462 A8s out of the dealership."

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2013...NEWS/130519937
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 3:22 am
  #122  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing
I'm not a naysayer, I quite like the idea of the electric cars (though I still think hydrogen is the future, sorry ... ) but can I have a go anyway?

You'll have to drive it up here first, though.
Sure...when they have the Supercharge network covering the Midwest

Talking of hydrogen, what happened to the Honda FCX lease project in CA?
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 4:10 am
  #123  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Brit3964
Here we go again...

"In the first three months of 2013, Tesla sold 4,750 sedans while Mercedes sold 3,077 of the S-class, BMW sold 2,338 of the 7-series and Audi sent 1,462 A8s out of the dealership."

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2013...NEWS/130519937
Are you unaware of the fact that Tesla spent four years creating a waiting list for the car, while the others did not?

Tesla sales during the second quarter are down 18% from the first quarter. We'll see how well they're selling in a year or two, once the initial round of diehard supporters -- the type of people who were willing to wait years for something that they hadn't even test-driven -- get their cars
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 4:29 am
  #124  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Brit3964
Sure...when they have the Supercharge network covering the Midwest

Talking of hydrogen, what happened to the Honda FCX lease project in CA?
I think it's still going but just restricted to California as far as fuel availability. I'd like to see it take off myself. It makes sense to use the most abundant element in the universe, after all
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 5:07 am
  #125  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

I think hydrogen will be the way it goes, but I can't help calling it a Ford Bleve.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 6:05 am
  #126  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

...... Flashback!!!!!!!! -



I wonder what this thread would be like back then .... my guess, same sh!te with more hair but on ham radio ...
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 10:08 am
  #127  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing
..... (though I still think hydrogen is the future, sorry ... ) .....
Originally Posted by Mr Weeze
I think hydrogen will be the way it goes, but I can't help calling it a Ford Bleve.
Hydrogen has similar energy density issues as electric batteries, and also similar infrastructure issues with refueling sites (there are currently few and building a network will be massively expensive).

I suspect that the future is some sort of biomass or algae derived liquid fuel, either biomass alcohol or "synthetic gasoline" (though synthetic diesel is more likely as diesel engines are more tolerant of fuel with different combustion properties). This solution would solve both the energy density issue and the network infrastructure issue.

Last edited by Pulaski; Jul 10th 2013 at 10:19 am.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 10:17 am
  #128  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
Are you unaware of the fact that Tesla spent four years creating a waiting list for the car, while the others did not?

Tesla sales during the second quarter are down 18% from the first quarter. We'll see how well they're selling in a year or two, once the initial round of diehard supporters -- the type of people who were willing to wait years for something that they hadn't even test-driven -- get their cars
Yeah, like Toyota that has struggled to maintain Prius sales at even half the rate they were selling a few years ago.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 12:27 pm
  #129  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

How have we got this far without mentioning the Fisker Karma?
By far the prettiest hybrid car produced.
Massive depreciation though, approx. 50% in a year.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 12:52 pm
  #130  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Pulaski
Hydrogen has similar energy density issues as electric batteries, and also similar infrastructure issues with refueling sites (there are currently few and building a network will be massively expensive).

I suspect that the future is some sort of biomass or algae derived liquid fuel, either biomass alcohol or "synthetic gasoline" (though synthetic diesel is more likely as diesel engines are more tolerant of fuel with different combustion properties). This solution would solve both the energy density issue and the network infrastructure issue.
Except that existing gas stations could be modified to hydrogen service pretty easily - and you could refuel at the same speed as the consumer is used to. It doesn't get you away from the power generation to create the hydrogen issue, but it is more efficient, overall. If someone can make biomass work (and Exxon have invested in it big time) then that could be interesting.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 1:25 pm
  #131  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Bink
How have we got this far without mentioning the Fisker Karma?
By far the prettiest hybrid car produced.
Massive depreciation though, approx. 50% in a year.
Good point! What are the current production and sales of the Fiskar? What are the growth projections? What new models are planned? What about battery exchanges and rapid charging stations? How long is the delivery wait time if your order a Fiskar? Can someone step up and give us some answers, please?
Originally Posted by Mr Weeze
Except that existing gas stations could be modified to hydrogen service pretty easily - .....
Conceptually, maybe, but you'd need to install a new high pressure tank and a completely different pumping system. Compared to, say, conversion to say E85, converting to supply hydrogen requires a lot if work, and until there is a market no one is going to want to commit to the expense, ..... and until there are convenient hydrogen suppliers no one is going to want to buy a hydrogen powered vehicle. At least with a plug-in electric you can charge your car at home.

Last edited by Pulaski; Jul 10th 2013 at 1:31 pm.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 1:43 pm
  #132  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Pulaski
Hydrogen has similar energy density issues as electric batteries, and also similar infrastructure issues with refueling sites (there are currently few and building a network will be massively expensive).
Perhaps. Of course, at one point there were no petrol stations anywhere as well so one would have to consider conversion to hydrogen as an investment in the future, I suppose.

Originally Posted by Pulaski
I suspect that the future is some sort of biomass or algae derived liquid fuel, either biomass alcohol or "synthetic gasoline" (though synthetic diesel is more likely as diesel engines are more tolerant of fuel with different combustion properties). This solution would solve both the energy density issue and the network infrastructure issue.
The future should be hydrogen, electric and biomass/synthetic diesel fuels (ane possibly more options, also retaining conventional petrol/diesel for as long as it lasts). Each option will have an application where it will perform best in.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 2:02 pm
  #133  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing
I think it's still going but just restricted to California as far as fuel availability. I'd like to see it take off myself. It makes sense to use the most abundant element in the universe, after all
The Honda Clarity can be leased in southern California only. It's an experimental car.

The number of leases more than doubled last year. During 2011, there were two; last year, there were five.

At this point, fuel cells are still experimental. They aren't durable, and the materials used to produce fuel cells are expensive. Even with a hefty lease payment, Honda is still losing a fortune on the car. And the costs don't scale, because the rare earth materials used to make the fuel cells don't get any cheaper through volume.

And you have to question whether it makes sense to convert natural gas into hydrogen for the sake of running an electric motor in a car. You may as well just put natural gas directly into the car (but that, too, has its own issues, given the low energy density of natural gas.)

Incidentally, I've driven the Honda Clarity, and it was pretty interesting. Feels remarkably normal. And the electric motor has full torque at 0 rpm, so it feels pleasantly quicker than it actually is. The driving experience itself is good, but the production issues get in the way.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 2:06 pm
  #134  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Pulaski
Yeah, like Toyota that has struggled to maintain Prius sales at even half the rate they were selling a few years ago.
The overall market in the US for hybrids is growing. But Ford is starting to take sales away from Toyota.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 2:12 pm
  #135  
 
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