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Let's talk about cars

Let's talk about cars

Old Jul 7th 2013, 10:51 am
  #91  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by dakota44
I actually think Tesla is the one that is going to bring about the best electric option. They are being innovative in ways other manufacturers are not. Of course their initial offerings are huge money. So was my first PC in comparison to what I can buy today with 100 times the capability for a quarter of the price. I'm rooting or them. I think eventually they will partner up with, hopefully Toyota, and bring an affordable model to the market.
Yup. Gotta hand it to Elon Musk. He's really thought out the whole concept not just the cars. Us early adopters will be paving the way for future cheaper versions. A sort of socialized commercial venture if you like but isn't that the way most genuinely innovative businesses start?

The PC comparison is spot on. Back in the mid 90s when I worked for the MoD, they had just bought a 3 machine digital edit suite capable of editing broadcast standard 500 line resolution video (Sony Betacam SP) and it cost 80k. I'm looking right now at a system to handle AVCHD/MP4 editing which will give me real time frame accurate preview on the timeline in full HD native resolution mode for about $4k or less.
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Old Jul 7th 2013, 11:40 am
  #92  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Brit3964
Yup. Gotta hand it to Elon Musk. He's really thought out the whole concept not just the cars. Us early adopters will be paving the way for future cheaper versions. A sort of socialized commercial venture if you like but isn't that the way most genuinely innovative businesses start?

The PC comparison is spot on. Back in the mid 90s when I worked for the MoD, they had just bought a 3 machine digital edit suite capable of editing broadcast standard 500 line resolution video (Sony Betacam SP) and it cost 80k. I'm looking right now at a system to handle AVCHD/MP4 editing which will give me real time frame accurate preview on the timeline in full HD native resolution mode for about $4k or less.
Actually the start of PC revolution was also very government sponsored socialized venture but in a different way. Robert Noyce (Fairchild) got a subcontract from IBM which contracted from the government to supply 100 transistors at $200 each in 90 days. After supplying those, Fairchild then became a main supplier to the government and eventually got the price down to create consumer transistor radios. Then the government needed ICs for the aerospace program and Noyce was able to invent and supply those. Then Noyce got feed up with Fairchild and established Intel which produced the first microprocessor (Intel 4004) again primarily to satisfy government needs which lead to the Intel 8080 three years later and the start of the PC revolution.
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Old Jul 7th 2013, 11:45 am
  #93  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Brit3964
Yup. Gotta hand it to Elon Musk. He's really thought out the whole concept not just the cars. Us early adopters will be paving the way for future cheaper versions. A sort of socialized commercial venture if you like but isn't that the way most genuinely innovative businesses start?

The PC comparison is spot on. Back in the mid 90s when I worked for the MoD, they had just bought a 3 machine digital edit suite capable of editing broadcast standard 500 line resolution video (Sony Betacam SP) and it cost 80k. I'm looking right now at a system to handle AVCHD/MP4 editing which will give me real time frame accurate preview on the timeline in full HD native resolution mode for about $4k or less.
My first PC? $4,500. 1G hard drive and pitiful RAM.

My first calculator. Simple 4 function. Had to take out a bank loan to buy it for $350 when I was in Uni.

It is always the same with any new technology. Early adopters, as you pointed out, pave the way for advancements. At this point in life, I let other early adopt. Less expensive.
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Old Jul 7th 2013, 11:56 am
  #94  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by dakota44
Early adopters, as you pointed out, pave the way for advancements.
The early adopters for electric cars were born in the 1800's. They've been long dead.
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Old Jul 7th 2013, 12:08 pm
  #95  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Brit3964
I did say it won't happen overnight but there's only so much oil available in the world
The amount of oil in the world, or lack thereof, doesn't have anything to do with the deficiencies of battery technology.

It's a pretty simple problem: a gas tank is like a jug -- fluid can be added to a container quickly. In contrast, a battery calls for a chemical reaction that allows power to be stored. That recharge process is, at least as of now, an inherently slow process, and requires a bulky, heavy battery to boot.

Originally Posted by Brit3964
Using the Supercharger network, it will take 45 mins for a full charge or 20 mins for a half charge. In general you don't do a max range charge as that will shorten the battery life. The standard rate is 90% charge. Tesla claim a 1% reduction in efficiency per year and their unlimited battery warranty covers the battery for anything except intentional damage.
The "fast" chargers are certainly slower than a gas or diesel fill-up. And while it's nice to have a warranty, that doesn't fix the inherent problem of batteries being compromised by "fast" charging. The warranty only addresses who gets to pay for it.

Originally Posted by Brit3964
You must have read the NYT article earlier this year where the reviewer did exactly that. Others did the same route in similar conditions afterwards and didn't have the problems he claimed.
Broder of the NYT parked the car outdoors overnight. Those who traveled the same route did not.

He also didn't charge the battery to the maximum, as he apparently didn't know that he could. (And customer service didn't tell him that he could, either.)

But he didn't drive the car like he stole it. On the contrary, he was generally getting passed by everyone on the expressway, as even Elon Musk's own charts and graphs will attest. Sorry, but if I buy an equivalent car such as an S-class, or for that matter, a Honda Fit, I won't need to worry about the manufacturer scolding me for driving at speeds that a grandmother would appreciate. The fact that the car can't be driven normally should be a sign that this is still a compromise technology with some noteworthy flaws.

Originally Posted by Brit3964
I don't know what PR battery swap you saw but in the one I saw they swapped 2 Tesla batteries in the time it took for 1 Audi A8 to fill up.
That's the one. And the fact that such a swapping mechanism is even necessary should make it obvious that even Musk knows that there the future of the quick-charge battery isn't bright.

Musk wants to create buzz, them flip the company to Google. Google has a tendency to pay a lot of money for businesses, even if they don't produce a profit.

Last edited by RoadWarriorFromLP; Jul 7th 2013 at 12:10 pm.
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Old Jul 7th 2013, 12:14 pm
  #96  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Michael
Actually the start of PC revolution was also very government sponsored socialized venture but in a different way. Robert Noyce (Fairchild) got a subcontract from IBM which contracted from the government to supply 100 transistors at $200 each in 90 days. After supplying those, Fairchild then became a main supplier to the government and eventually got the price down to create consumer transistor radios. Then the government needed ICs for the aerospace program and Noyce was able to invent and supply those. Then Noyce got feed up with Fairchild and established Intel which produced the first microprocessor (Intel 4004) again primarily to satisfy government needs which lead to the Intel 8080 three years later and the start of the PC revolution.
Excellent point. Without the government programs paying the early way, many of the things we take for granted would have either never come about or would have been seriously delayed.
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Old Jul 7th 2013, 12:40 pm
  #97  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
The "fast" chargers are certainly slower than a gas or diesel fill-up.
Which is why they did the battery swap demo. Elon himself said if users want a quick way to refill, they'll have the option of a battery swap and pay a nominal fee. If you have the time use the Supercharge network and do it for free.

But he didn't drive the car like he stole it
Actually he did. According to Tesla's own logs:

Cruise control was never set to 54 mph as claimed in the article, nor did he limp along at 45 mph. Broder in fact drove at speeds from 65 mph to 81 mph for a majority of the trip and at an average cabin temperature setting of 72 F.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/most...iar-test-drive

Musk wants to create buzz, them flip the company to Google. Google has a tendency to pay a lot of money for businesses, even if they don't produce a profit.
Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see that happening. Elon has been in charge of the company for 9 years through the bad times and now the better times. It's possible he'll eventually sell it or leave to do other things but to me, he seems genuine. When did you last hear a CEO admit they made a mistake? He did when they got criticism with the 40Kw version and pulled it off the production line because it wasn't meeting their expectations.
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Old Jul 7th 2013, 12:44 pm
  #98  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by dakota44
My first PC? $4,500. 1G hard drive and pitiful RAM.
I still remember my Elonex 486SX 25Mhz w/4Mb of RAM. That was 1993. About $2400 when adjusted for inflation today.
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Old Jul 7th 2013, 12:49 pm
  #99  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by dakota44
Excellent point. Without the government programs paying the early way, many of the things we take for granted would have either never come about or would have been seriously delayed.
Tesla is a perfect example of a private business/Government partnership. Without the loan in 2009 arguably they might not have made it this far AND they've paid back the loan 9 years early.
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Old Jul 7th 2013, 1:10 pm
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Brit3964
Tesla is a perfect example of a private business/Government partnership. Without the loan in 2009 arguably they might not have made it this far AND they've paid back the loan 9 years early.
So true. I hate when conservatives go all apoplectic when the government dares to hand out loan guarantees etc. Except, of course, when it is for something they want. They made a lot of noise about Tesla and that it would be a failure at government expense. Pass out the crow for them to eat. Not all such investments by the government work out so well, but then neither do all private investments. Same for the bailout for the car industry. Most of the money has been paid back plus profit from the sale of stock the government took control of. Conservatives still can't wrap their heads around the logic.
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Old Jul 7th 2013, 1:11 pm
  #101  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Brit3964
I still remember my Elonex 486SX 25Mhz w/4Mb of RAM. That was 1993. About $2400 when adjusted for inflation today.
I think mine had 16Mb of ram so I guess the extra $2,000 was worth it.
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Old Jul 7th 2013, 1:19 pm
  #102  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Brit3964
Actually he did.
Did you actually look at the graph? Broder generally drove about 60-65 mph. Higher speeds were driven only for brief periods and Broder never drove the car particularly fast.



Sorry, but you Tesla fans are being duped. I know that you want to believe in the product, but even the lines on that graph don't indicate anything nefarious about the driving style. (I would have blown by a car driving at that speed.) The car is supposed to be a no compromise affair, but it's clearly compromised.

Personally, I would have driven that route faster than that, and I wouldn't have bothered to turn down the heater, either. If the thing had run out of juice, then so be it -- let Tesla tow it. The car is supposed to serve me, not the other way around.
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Old Jul 8th 2013, 1:26 am
  #103  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
Did you actually look at the graph? Broder generally drove about 60-65 mph. Higher speeds were driven only for brief periods and Broder never drove the car particularly fast.
Yes you are right BUT he didn't write that in his article. He highlighted the weaknesses from his self admitted "imprecise" notes and chose to lie about what actually happened. What he didn't know was Tesla had the ability to go and look at the actual car logs and call him out on it.

The Top Gear Roadster review was much the same. They hammered the car around a racetrack then wondered why they couldn't get the 200 mile range. There's no electric car right now that can do that. It's not for everybody.

It comes down to this. If you are the kind of driver who likes to drive fast and regularly has to go long distances quickly then stick to an ICE car - Internal Combustion Engine, hand over the $$$ to the oil companies and don't complain when the price goes up. If you are able and want to challenge the status quo, don't drive long distances often and be kinder to the environment at the same time then a Tesla might be your answer.
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Old Jul 8th 2013, 3:50 am
  #104  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Brit3964
The standard rate is 90% charge. Tesla claim a 1% reduction in efficiency per year and their unlimited battery warranty covers the battery for anything except intentional damage.
So they replace the battery now when it's bricked? They fix the issue of it allowing the battery to drain flat and killing the car if you've not been using it a few weeks? They weren't replacing them and costing $40K to customers when I read about it a year ago.

If you're getting off peak electrical rates and alternative power production for the electric, certainly much better consideration though than for areas that don't like where I am
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Old Jul 8th 2013, 10:02 am
  #105  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Bob
So they replace the battery now when it's bricked
"An additional warranty covers the battery and varies by capacity. The 60 kWh battery is covered for 8 years or 125,000 miles, whichever comes first. The largest battery, 85 kWh, is covered for eight years and unlimited miles."

Mine is the 85Kw so I'm covered for 8 years/unlimited mileage. It's the mileage that's unlimited not the age. They also say there will be a pre-paid replacement battery warranty coming however I'd imagine in 8yrs time, the price might well be lower anyway.

They fix the issue of it allowing the battery to drain flat and killing the car if you've not been using it a few weeks?
"The Model S battery will not lose a significant amount of charge when parked for long periods of time. For example, Model S owners can park at the airport without plugging in."

http://www.teslamotors.com/models/facts
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