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Let's talk about cars

Let's talk about cars

Old Oct 11th 2013, 5:28 pm
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Jonion
Maybe some 'gearhead' does what 'gearheads' do and tried to improve what he had.
Which, as he then found out, was very compromised product.

Fitting a speed governer because you have produced a product that is fundamentally flawed is not something any good engineer would say is a good idea

It's not a flawed product though. The limiter is there to protect the lower rated products which are fitted to keep the cost of the car down. It's why you can buy a new V6 mustang for just over $20k.
I've been in the V6 mustang and gotta say, it's still a damn fine car. Sure, to aren't gonna buy it as a track car unless you are gonna upgrade parts, but it still accelerates and drives well. It's better than most of the SUV and econoboxes on America's roads. And to be honest, you're never gonna get near 100mph on the USA's roads unless you want to get banged up for life with no chance of parole LOL. Obviously given the chance, I'd take a V8 (there was a gorgeous boss 302 at work the other day), but I'd be more than happy with a V6, which, bang for buck is still a damn fine car.
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Old Oct 11th 2013, 5:33 pm
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Jonion
... Subaru once produced a vehicle in which the gearbox would fail due to the output of the engine, they redesigned the clutch to slip first, saving many expensive gearbox rebuilds,. Still not a perfect solution but far better than compromising the whole purpose of the car. ....
Not just Subaru, but Austin Rover also, with its Montego Turbo. When the gearbox failed under warranty, owners who had the gearbox replaced noticed that, when their cars came back, the seemed to have mysteriously lost some power!
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Old Oct 11th 2013, 5:46 pm
  #753  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

With the Mustang, I understand why they have the girder rear axle. It's just plain cheaper You could improve a car and end up in Ferrari territory pricewise.

Generally more durable too, at the very least there's far fewer bits.

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Old Oct 11th 2013, 5:52 pm
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Jonion
Maybe some 'gearhead' does what 'gearheads' do and tried to improve what he had.
Which, as he then found out, was very compromised product.
The V6 Mustang has more than 300 horsepower and a top speed of more than 110 mph, a speed that will get your license revoked in most states. The car has a 0-60 time in the low 5-second range and a quarter mile time of under 14 seconds, yet it costs less than $30k and manages to get average fuel economy in the mid-20s.

That isn't much of a compromise. A beefier transmission would have made the car more expensive, which creates a different compromise in the form of a price increase. Those who want the higher top speed are free to pay more for a V8 model.

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Old Oct 11th 2013, 5:54 pm
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by markonline1
It's not a flawed product though. The limiter is there to protect the lower rated products which are fitted to keep the cost of the car down. It's why you can buy a new V6 mustang for just over $20k.
But it is a flawed product if they have to restrict it to make sure things don't break simply down to what powerplant is in it. They should produce a product that can't self-destruct.
Whichever part breaks should be replaced with one that doesn't. If the V8 version is fine then use the part from that model.
Who the hell designed the part that breaks and decided they'd use it anyway? That is mental.

Designing/building down to a price is no excuse.


I've been in the V6 mustang and gotta say, it's still a damn fine car. Sure, to aren't gonna buy it as a track car unless you are gonna upgrade parts, but it still accelerates and drives well. It's better than most of the SUV and econoboxes on America's roads.
ah yes but that wasn't the point. I'm sure it is a fine car if you set your expectations accordingly. But in the context of good sports cars or muscle cars it doesn't fit either. It is an OK car in a Mustang body. The exact reason I wouldn't want one.


And to be honest, you're never gonna get near 100mph on the USA's roads unless you want to get banged up for life with no chance of parole LOL.
I'm going to note the 'lol' and assume that was a jest
I have seen that theory tested and work out fine.
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Old Oct 11th 2013, 6:02 pm
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Pulaski
Not just Subaru, but Austin Rover also, with its Montego Turbo. When the gearbox failed under warranty, owners who had the gearbox replaced noticed that, when their cars came back, the seemed to have mysteriously lost some power!
My neighbour recently had a Montego and Maestro Turbot. Oh how we laughed. I often queried how he was going to stop a 152mph car with Metro brakes.
My point was that no-one would expect Subaru to have such design issues, whereas we would expect nothing else of BL/Rover



Originally Posted by MostlyYank
With the Mustang, I understand why they have the girder rear axle. It's just plain cheaper You could improve a car and end up in Ferrari territory pricewise.

Generally more durable too, at the very least there's far fewer bits.


Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
The V6 Mustang has more than 300 horsepower and a top speed of more than 120 mph, a speed that will get your license revoked in most states. The car has a 0-60 time in the low 5-second range and a quarter mile time of under 14 seconds, yet it costs less than $30k and manages to get average fuel economy in the mid-20s.

That isn't much of a compromise. A beefier transmission would have made the car more expensive, which creates a different compromise in the form of a price increase. Those who want the higher top speed are free to pay more for a V8 model.
But it is a compromise when it has a speed limiter.
I would never buy a car of any age knowing that technically it is capable of 150mph with ease but can only do 120mph because it will fall apart due to build compromises.
Price should not be a consideration in this respect.

BTW I'm actually more curious as to how a governer stops this from happening when the torque loading is at it's greatest, this should have nothing to do with top speed at all.
I have no idea how the speed would be an issue.
Any ideas? Links?
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Old Oct 11th 2013, 6:05 pm
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

But hold on, the V6 isn't a sports or muscle car. It's designed for people like me. People who want some performance but that have bloody big mortgages, kids, bills, etc etc and can't afford the extra initial cost or the running cost of the V8. The V6 still produces figures of over 300hp and over 250lb/ft of torque, good figures on paper and these are transferred to good performance on the road.
Yeah, they could update the driveshaft and remove the limiter, but then the price goes up. Just like as said earlier, they could update the suspension, but the price goes up. Looking at Edmunds, there are no known driveshaft problems apart from numpty's that remove the limiter. So whereas, yes I agree, designing something to compensate a part that is known to be faulty (such as the previous suburu example) is pretty lame, in this case, the car has been designed to be a cheap sporty coupe (not sports car before anyone jumps on that). Plenty of cars are built with limiters to protect parts, it's just the mustangs limiter is lower than most LOL

I'm going to note the 'lol' and assume that was a jest
I have seen that theory tested and work out fine.[/QUOTE]
No, you won't get banged up for life, but the CHP certainly are like speed nazi's.

Last edited by markonline1; Oct 11th 2013 at 6:07 pm.
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Old Oct 11th 2013, 6:10 pm
  #758  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Jonion
But it is a compromise when it has a speed limiter.
Every car is compromised. There isn't a single vehicle on the road that can do everything.

As it turns out, the 305-horsepower and 280-pound-feet of torque 3.7-liter V6 Mustang is built with a 2.73 rear gear ratio and a lightweight, one-piece driveshaft that's engineered to toe the line between fuel economy and performance. That driveshaft is part of the recipe that allows the coupe to yield 31 mpg highway...

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/19/w...ails-at-135-m/

If you want more top speed, then you can buy a V8 Mustang. But you will pay more for the car and use more fuel, which are also compromises.
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Old Oct 11th 2013, 6:13 pm
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars


Just had a quick mooch about.
Seems that the speed limiter is due to the driveshafts not being up to the job.
That explains why it is a speed limiter and nothing to do with governing the torque or power of the engine. So basically the engine output has absolutely nothing to do with it.
So driveshafts are easy to replace and not that costly in the greater scheme of things.
Looks like they may be resolving the issue with later model driveshafts without the harmonic vibration issues.
But it's still farcical.
The Fiesta and Focus have higher top speeds than this particular Mustang and neither have issues at those speeds, makes you think.

So they have basically given it an electronic speed limiter to hide the fact that the driveshafts will likely cause issues over 113mph.
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Old Oct 11th 2013, 6:18 pm
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Jonion
:So they have basically given it an electronic speed limiter to hide the fact that the driveshafts will likely cause issues over 113mph.
Yes. Although you say hide, I say protect. And the driveshaft is one of the reasons its an affordable car.
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Old Oct 11th 2013, 6:19 pm
  #761  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

The Crown Vics had the same issue, the cop cars had a different driveshaft and so no limiter. Top speed, 205?

Pete
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Old Oct 11th 2013, 6:23 pm
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by MostlyYank
The Crown Vics had the same issue, the cop cars had a different driveshaft and so no limiter. Top speed, 205?

Pete
Really??? Jesus! Not sure I'd want to be doing 205 in one of them! Then again, the only CV's I've been in are cabs LOL
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Old Oct 11th 2013, 6:48 pm
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by S Folinsky
I used to have a 1967 Sunbeam Tiger. That had the Ford small-block V-8 and a live axle -- it was both a roadster and a sports car in my book. [It also had an English top -- one of the easier ones to "erect" but I could not figure whether one stayed drier in the rain with the top up or top down.]
Oye the Tiger was cool. 260c.i. engine as I recall. The engine was so snug that changing the plugs was a real chore. Go like snot though.
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Old Oct 11th 2013, 6:48 pm
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by markonline1
But hold on, the V6 isn't a sports or muscle car. It's designed for people like me. People who want some performance but that have bloody big mortgages, kids, bills, etc etc and can't afford the extra initial cost or the running cost of the V8. The V6 still produces figures of over 300hp and over 250lb/ft of torque, good figures on paper and these are transferred to good performance on the road.
Not arguing that point.
The original comments were specifically about putting the V6 in the exact same category as the V8 . Which it isn't. That was the point.


Yeah, they could update the driveshaft and remove the limiter, but then the price goes up. Just like as said earlier, they could update the suspension, but the price goes up. Looking at Edmunds, there are no known driveshaft problems apart from numpty's that remove the limiter. So whereas, yes I agree, designing something to compensate a part that is known to be faulty (such as the previous suburu example) is pretty lame, in this case, the car has been designed to be a cheap sporty coupe (not sports car before anyone jumps on that). Plenty of cars are built with limiters to protect parts, it's just the mustangs limiter is lower than most LOL
My point doesn't dis-agree with you really.
What gets me is that they cover up a fault by limiting the car's overall performance, which in itself will lose a lot of customers.
E.G almost no-one would have bought a F40 Ferrari knowing that it was restricted to the speed limit of the market country because of an inherent design fault.
How much did they save/lose by fitting a limiter rather than fitting a better driveshaft?

No, you won't get banged up for life, but the CHP certainly are like speed nazi's.
California?
Not been there and know a few people who live there, they wouldn't argue with you on that

Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
Every car is compromised. There isn't a single vehicle on the road that can do everything.
Absolutely.
But not in this way.
A compromise is not hiding a fault. It is making things work better as a whole rather than for a specific.
"OK the brakes on this car are cheap but don't work so well, let's limit the top speed so no-one notices"
That scenario would not go down well methinks.

That driveshaft is part of the recipe that allows the coupe to yield 31 mpg highway...
It's also the driveshaft that Ford have accepted is not fit for use and have replaced on the latest models and seem to be introducing as a replacement for the older models.
Assuming that you are still quotiong about the faulty one and not the newer model.

If you want more top speed, then you can buy a V8 Mustang. But you will pay more for the car and use more fuel, which are also compromises.
Compromises yes, acceptance of buying a car with a fault? No.

Top speed is irrelevant in the mpg debate.
A car only capable of 100 mph is going to use more fuel at 100mph than a car capable of 200mph driven at 100mph.

The cost of the car should not be a consideration.
You live in the land of the recall. Do you really think many manufacturers design faults into cars hoping they get away with it? How much do all these recalls cost companies?
If Ford hadn't limited this car's top speed they would have a lot of potential recalls to sort out. Was this a pre-empt on their part? Give them a car that is fundamentally flawed but fit a system that prevents it happening.

Sorry but anyone who buys a car with 300bhp etc and a speed limited to 113mph must be mad if they don't question why it is limited.
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Old Oct 11th 2013, 7:44 pm
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Jonion
..... Top speed is irrelevant in the mpg debate.
A car only capable of 100 mph is going to use more fuel at 100mph than a car capable of 200mph driven at 100mph. .....
A few years ago, in Germany I think, a magazine did a test on a banked test track. They took a Prius and had a test driver run it as fast as was comfortable, given that it wasn't designed for autobahn cruising. Then they had an M3 match the Prius's speed around the track, and calculated the fuel consumption figures. Which one had the lower fuel consumption at the speed they ran?

I don't know what the benchmark speed was, but I suspect that several Prius drivers who blow past me on the interstate near where I live, when I'm doing 75-80, aren't getting even close to the fuel consumption figures Toyota brags about.

Last edited by Pulaski; Oct 11th 2013 at 7:47 pm.
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