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Let's talk about cars

Let's talk about cars

Old Feb 20th 2014, 3:41 am
  #1726  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Yorkieabroad
Agreed. You're in good company - there was an interesting article a few days back with Villeneuve (the younger) saying that he thought F1 wasn't as good as it used to be...

We used to go to a lot of races back in the 80's and early 90's. First ever race was Long Beach in '79, when James Hunt hit a tire wall on the warm up lap right in front of us. Oops. I lost interest when the Schumaker era came in. Sure, he was a quick aggressive driver, lot of talent behind the wheel. Questionable sportsmanship at times. Not so bad in his early years at Benetton, but after he went to Ferrari, I couldn't handle him.
Schumacher was a great driver but the problem with the post-2000 Ferrari era was that it was by far the best car on the grid. You could have put any driver in that car and they'd have won, provided they stayed on the track.

I much prefer his 1994/95 titles because he won those in a seasons where the Williams cars were the clear favourites. Plus I enjoyed his on-track antics with Damon Hill. It was just more exciting then.

It's become too much about the car rather than the driver these days and things like KERS and DRS have ruined it a bit too. When Piquet, Senna and Prost were winning titles in the turbo era - they did it while having to change gears using a standard gear stick. Now, they don't even have to take their hands off the wheel

Not to take away from his four titles but I believe if you put Vettel and Mansell in identical FW14s at Silverstone, or him and Senna in MP4/6s at Monaco, Mansell and Senna would win every time.

Oh Christ, is there an F1 equivalent of 'jumpers for goalposts'? I think I'm there
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Old Feb 20th 2014, 5:16 am
  #1727  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Hmmmmm, I wonder if I should mention Schumacher won the majority of his titles by either cheating or having victories handed to him by his team mates? Naaaaaaahhhhhhhh .
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Old Feb 20th 2014, 5:20 am
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Yorkieabroad
Nah, they'd be even better if they had a big pointy thing sticking up in the middle to hang the laundry on.....something more like this....Attachment 116322
I'm a powerboat guy - grew up with power boats and have always loved them. It's the reason I did a Naval Architecture degree (which is clearly how I ended up in the subsea world...)

Anyway, I digress. If I were to get a sailboat it would have to be a Wally:
Attached Thumbnails Let's talk about cars-wally.jpg  
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Old Feb 20th 2014, 5:25 am
  #1729  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by markonline1
Hmmmmm, I wonder if I should mention Schumacher won the majority of his titles by either cheating or having victories handed to him by his team mates? Naaaaaaahhhhhhhh .
If world championships were awarded based on performance relative to your teammate (i.e.a driver who is using the same equipment) then I believe that Schumacher would have won every year that he competed, at least up to his original retirement. In qualifying, when he was on pole, the time gap between him and whoever his team mate was, was often as great as between his team mate and the slowest car on the grid. Much of the grid often lines up in pairs, or on adjacent rows on the grid, with times split by 1/100ths, Oft overlooked, performance over team mates is perhaps the best measure of a great driver.
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Old Feb 20th 2014, 5:28 am
  #1730  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

However, as Irvine or Barrichello were never allowed to race Schumacher, in this case, performance of team mates means diddly squat.
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Old Feb 20th 2014, 5:42 am
  #1731  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by markonline1
However, as Irvine or Barrichello were never allowed to race Schumacher, in this case, performance of team mates means diddly squat.
That was Ferrari's policy though, not Schumacher's. At Benneton, he won two championships against better cars with non-contender teammates, he was a deserved champion, even if his team stacked the odds in his favour.

He did, after all, swap places on the podium with Barrichello after he had been forced to let him pass.

As far as the cheating goes - well that's subjective and in 1994/5, Hill gave as good as he got. Either driver would have deserved the title each year and Hill was arguably in a better car, but they went to Schumacher.

It was still a better era, IMO
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Old Feb 20th 2014, 5:46 am
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing
That was Ferrari's policy though, not Schumacher's. At Benneton, he won two championships against better cars with non-contender teammates, he was a deserved champion, even if his team stacked the odds in his favour.

He did, after all, swap places on the podium with Barrichello after he had been forced to let him pass.

As far as the cheating goes - well that's subjective and in 1994/5, Hill gave as good as he got. Either driver would have deserved the title each year and Hill was arguably in a better car, but they went to Schumacher.

It was still a better era, IMO
Agreed. As an aside, that Benneton was a nice looking car.
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Old Feb 20th 2014, 5:53 am
  #1733  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing
That was Ferrari's policy though, not Schumacher's. At Benneton, he won two championships against better cars with non-contender teammates, he was a deserved champion, even if his team stacked the odds in his favour.

He did, after all, swap places on the podium with Barrichello after he had been forced to let him pass.

As far as the cheating goes - well that's subjective and in 1994/5, Hill gave as good as he got. Either driver would have deserved the title each year and Hill was arguably in a better car, but they went to Schumacher.

It was still a better era, IMO
Ok, I have to answer this
I agree the Schumacher Hill incident is subjective..... to Schumacher fans. Schumi drives into the wall, damages his car then drives into Hill 2 corners later to deny him the world title. Hmmmmmm. Does the same to Villeneuve in his world title year though this time spectacularly fails.
I hear people say the win situation was Ferrari's doing and not Schumi's, but that team was built around Schumacher. He had more influence in that team than probably any other driver in history. I will give Schumi credit, I believe he was responsible for bringing Ferrari back consistent winning ways.
As for the podium incident. That was embarrassing. And it cost Ferrari a million dollars
Ever since I've watched F1, there's always been a dominant team, but Ferrari have been the only team that have refused to let their drivers race from lights out.
I do agree though the period up to where Ferrari dominated was far better though. I'd love to see cars return to fat slicks, large simple front and rear wing and that's it. If the FIA want to improve racing, outlaw wind tunnel development!

Last edited by markonline1; Feb 20th 2014 at 5:56 am.
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Old Feb 20th 2014, 6:00 am
  #1734  
 
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

It should always be about the team though. F1 is a team sport. Ludicrous (and always ignored anyway) rules about "team orders" aside, the drivers should always play a secondary role. If Schumacher was seen as the best hope for Ferrari then they were always going to play him as their favorite.

If it had been some years before, they would have had Barrichello get out of his car and hand it over mid-race if needed.

I miss the old F1, there are no "characters" anymore, be it on the pit wall or in the car, nor I suspect will there ever be again due to the need to pander to the sponsors.
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Old Feb 20th 2014, 6:02 am
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by markonline1
I'd love to see cars return to fat slicks, large simple front and rear wing and that's it. If the FIA want to improve racing, outlaw wind tunnel development!
Truth in this. Excessive aero has done immeasurable damage.
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Old Feb 20th 2014, 6:04 am
  #1736  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Again, I get the team sport, but every other team lets their drivers race. The only proviso is you don't take each other off. Granted, after the final pit stop, drivers will hold position and preserve the car. My huge beef is Ferrari never let their drivers race. You knew before the race started pretty much that Schumacher was gonna win and that the other Ferrari wouldn't even challenge him. Great if your tifosi I guess, shit if your a fan that enjoys racing rather than 60 odd victory laps.
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Old Feb 20th 2014, 6:06 am
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Nutek
I miss the old F1, there are no "characters" anymore, be it on the pit wall or in the car, nor I suspect will there ever be again due to the need to pander to the sponsors.
Kimi fits that bill IMO (it pains me that I'll have to cheer him on in a Ferrari this year) but apart from that, yep, all robots.
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Old Feb 20th 2014, 6:17 am
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Nutek
Agreed. As an aside, that Benneton was a nice looking car.
Damn right. Much as I loved the 200mph pack of Rothmans that year, it was quite tasty.

Originally Posted by markonline1
Ok, I have to answer this
I agree the Schumacher Hill incident is subjective..... to Schumacher fans. Schumi drives into the wall, damages his car then drives into Hill 2 corners later to deny him the world title. Hmmmmmm. Does the same to Villeneuve in his world title year though this time spectacularly fails.
I hear people say the win situation was Ferrari's doing and not Schumi's, but that team was built around Schumacher. He had more influence in that team than probably any other driver in history. I will give Schumi credit, I believe he was responsible for bringing Ferrari back consistent winning ways.
As for the podium incident. That was embarrassing. And it cost Ferrari a million dollars
Ever since I've watched F1, there's always been a dominant team, but Ferrari have been the only team that have refused to let their drivers race from lights out.
I do agree though the period up to where Ferrari dominated was far better though. I'd love to see cars return to fat slicks, large simple front and rear wing and that's it. If the FIA want to improve racing, outlaw wind tunnel development!
OK, I get it. I don't call it 'cheating' though, just aggressive driving. Look at Senna and Prost, at each others throats all through 1988/89/90 and they were on the same team

I'm not a Schumacher fan boy, don't get me wrong. I'm a Senna/Mansell fan and I wanted Hill to win post-Senna. I do respect Schumacher as a driver though, same as I respect Prost, even though he's a cowardly baguette eating French twat (I do actually like the French, by the way ...).

If you want to see how a team races properly though, there was a Grand Prix, can't remember which one, around 1991/2 where Mansell won against Senna but instead of getting up his trumpet from lap 1, he sat back at 5th and let Patrese wear out Senna's tyres before he took the lead. Great stuff!
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Old Feb 20th 2014, 7:05 am
  #1739  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing
OK, I get it. I don't call it 'cheating' though, just aggressive driving......
I'm not a Schumacher fan boy, don't get me wrong.
Whereas I am definitely a Damn Hill fanboy, so it's cheating
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Old Feb 20th 2014, 7:14 am
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by markonline1
Whereas I am definitely a Damn Hill fanboy, so it's cheating
It'd have been a different story if that FW16 wasn't so bloody twitchy and Senna hadn't crashed, of course
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