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Let's talk about cars

Let's talk about cars

Old Jul 10th 2013, 2:15 am
  #136  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Brilliant!
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 2:15 am
  #137  
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AWESOMEVICE!!!!1!!1!
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 2:20 am
  #138  
 
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Poor Sultan is having a physics meltdown about now.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 2:20 am
  #139  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
The overall market in the US for hybrids is growing. But Ford is starting to take sales away from Toyota.
The Wikipedia article on hybrid sales, which unfortunately hasn't been updated with 2012 full year data, or any data for 2013, shows that aggregate annual hybrid sales peaked in 2007, and have declined EVERY year since then. Until hybrid technology is a zero cost option, as it is on Ford's Lincoln brand cars, take-up is likely to remain low. Even if it is "free" it is still a bunch of relatively new technology just waiting to fail and lead to expensive repair bills, not least for failed/ degraded batteries. ... I heard that Toyota was buying back older Prius models and crushing them (or perhaps replacing the batteries before selling them as used cars?) to minimize the risk of "prematurely failing batteries" becoming a big story.

Last edited by Pulaski; Jul 10th 2013 at 2:30 am.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 2:25 am
  #140  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Concept Jag Project 7...arty video - see the D-type reflection in the last shot. Hellish noise.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 2:30 am
  #141  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
<<good natured snip for post size (H2 cell reply)>>
Most industrial hydrogen is produced from steam reforming, as is my understanding, so if they're doing it anyway, it makes a little more sense. Other methods may also need to be researched but they may end up being a bit more space-age that would be hard to justify simply for use in cars ...

Ultimately something will have to be done as the long-term limitations of oil-based fuels are plainly apparenty. The auto industry has had it relatively easy for a hundred years or so, internal combustion has served us well and will continue to, but the price of oil will continue to increase as availability continues to decrease.

So far, I think Pulaski's biomass solution probably makes most sense from a practical standpoint.

Electric cars have a place too though, especially for city-based low mileage drivers. Cleaner electricity production is the key here, like Thorium based nuclear power or some other non-fossil fuel based idea.

Originally Posted by Mr Weeze
AWESOMEVICE!!!!1!!1!
**** off with that ...

Originally Posted by Nutek
Poor Sultan is having a physics meltdown about now.
Au contraire I love this shit, I'm enjoying the discussion.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 2:37 am
  #142  
 
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing

Au contraire I love this shit, I'm enjoying the discussion.
Thought the introduction of Magic Magnets might have been too much.

Joking aside, I wish Hydrogen could gain more traction. there must be some parts of the existing infrastructure that can be used/converted?

I assume that this stuff gets pushback from the oil companies? Or do they own the competing tech anyway?
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 2:43 am
  #143  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Nutek
Thought the introduction of Magic Magnets might have been too much.

Joking aside, I wish Hydrogen could gain more traction. there must be some parts of the existing infrastructure that can be used/converted?

I assume that this stuff gets pushback from the oil companies? Or do they own the competing tech anyway?
They work for the bullet train, don't they

I, too would like to see hydrogen take off, pun not intended, but the cynic in me does tend to agree with your last statement regarding the oil companies. Since it seems to be the thing for the POTUS to suck the dick of big oil, I suspect bugger all will be done of any real worth until one of them grows some balls.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 2:53 am
  #144  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Pulaski
Until hybrid technology is a zero cost option, as it is on Ford's Lincoln brand cars, take-up is likely to remain low.
Between CAFE regulations in the US and carbon emissions standards in the EU that effectively act as a fuel economy mandate, there are probably going to be more hybrids, not fewer of them.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 2:55 am
  #145  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Nutek
Thought the introduction of Magic Magnets might have been too much.

Joking aside, I wish Hydrogen could gain more traction. there must be some parts of the existing infrastructure that can be used/converted?

I assume that this stuff gets pushback from the oil companies? Or do they own the competing tech anyway?
Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing
They work for the bullet train, don't they

I, too would like to see hydrogen take off, pun not intended, but the cynic in me does tend to agree with your last statement regarding the oil companies. Since it seems to be the thing for the POTUS to suck the dick of big oil, I suspect bugger all will be done of any real worth until one of them grows some balls.
The oil companies are at the forefront of it. They (well some of them anyway) do a lot of research on alternatives but they probably won't push them until they need to as oil is doing just fine for them right now.
When the switch happens, you can bet your bottom dollar that they'll already have everything in place for it. They're too used to making money to miss the opportunity when the market changes to continue to make money.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 2:56 am
  #146  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by Bink
The oil companies are at the forefront of it. They (well some of them anyway) do a lot of research on alternatives but they probably won't push them until they need to as oil is doing just fine for them right now.
This is what happens when the businessman creeps into the domain of the engineer.

Twats.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 2:58 am
  #147  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing
This is what happens when the businessman creeps into the domain of the engineer.

Twats.
There's an increasing number of Engineer's getting MBA's...
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 3:02 am
  #148  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing
Most industrial hydrogen is produced from steam reforming, as is my understanding, so if they're doing it anyway, it makes a little more sense. Other methods may also need to be researched but they may end up being a bit more space-age that would be hard to justify simply for use in cars ...
Transporting hydrogen to service stations doesn't make much sense. The energy density is low -- you would need considerably more trucks to move it than is the case now with gasoline and diesel. Moving hydrogen long distances isn't a good option.

So that means producing hydrogen at the retail outlet. And that means converting natural gas into hydrogen, just so that it can be transferred into a car made with exotic materials that don't last very long. It's a costly exercise that doesn't yield any benefit, which leads back to just running the car directly on natural gas instead of bothering with the conversion.

I think that part of the problem here is the fixation with the green movement on tailpipe emissions, when there is an entire production and consumption cycle to be considered. Sure, a hydrogen fuel cell car produces water vapor for its emissions, but creating the hydrogen from natural gas leads you back to fossil fuels.

If you really want to run a car on natural gas, then you could save yourself a few steps and just run it directly on gas, which is quite easy to do. But that takes us back to the low energy density of natural gas -- there goes your luggage space -- and the associated risk of the tanks. (You don't want a guy driving a beater natural gas car with a dodgy old fuel tank in it, as it could explode.)
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 3:09 am
  #149  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
Transporting hydrogen to service stations doesn't make much sense. The energy density is low -- you would need considerably more trucks to move it than is the case now with gasoline and diesel. Moving hydrogen long distances isn't a good option.

So that means producing hydrogen at the retail outlet. And that means converting natural gas into hydrogen, just so that it can be transferred into a car made with exotic materials that don't last very long. It's a costly exercise that doesn't yield any benefit, which leads back to just running the car directly on natural gas instead of bothering with the conversion.

I think that part of the problem here is the fixation with the green movement on tailpipe emissions, when there is an entire production and consumption cycle to be considered. Sure, a hydrogen fuel cell car produces water vapor for its emissions, but creating the hydrogen from natural gas leads you back to fossil fuels.

If you really want to run a car on natural gas, then you could save yourself a few steps and just run it directly on gas, which is quite easy to do. But that takes us back to the low energy density of natural gas -- there goes your luggage space -- and the associated risk of the tanks. (You don't want a guy driving a beater natural gas car with a dodgy old fuel tank in it, as it could explode.)
I see your point, I think I just wanted hydrogen to succeed because I liked the idea, which is bad science.

Fixating on tailpipe emissions may be very noble but it won't solve the problem because they are looking at the wrong end of the process. The things still have to be made, etc.
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Old Jul 10th 2013, 3:46 am
  #150  
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Default Re: Let's talk about cars

Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
Between CAFE regulations in the US and carbon emissions standards in the EU that effectively act as a fuel economy mandate, there are probably going to be more hybrids, not fewer of them.
I am sure you're right, however there is no sign of the upward trend prior to 2007 being resumed based on recent years' data, and even if it has resumed in 2013, without a rapid increase it would likely be at least 2-3 years before the sales peak of 2007 is surpassed.

In fact the "giant leap forward" in the US national vehicle fleet fuel economy was the rather unsexy "cash for clunkers" program and subsequent interest in smaller and more economic vehicles like the Focus, Corolla, Civic, Fit, Astra/Cruze, Smart, Mini, Fiat 500, and several Korean vehicles. Of course hybrids also helped the figures, but statistically it has more impact on total national fuel consumption to get people out of 16mpg vehicles and into 18mpg vehicles than to get people out of 30mpg cars and into hybrids doing 50mpg, and therefore massively more so if you can get people of an SUV or truck, or older body-on-frame gas guzzler, and into a 30mpg vehicle.

Last edited by Pulaski; Jul 10th 2013 at 3:49 am.
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