Gold star families

Old Oct 21st 2017, 12:28 pm
  #31  
 
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Default Re: Gold star families

Originally Posted by dc koop
Like Shard you're out of date. Cannon fodder was more appropriate to the Vietnam war when it was fought by an army with significant numbers of draftees from the poorer neighbourhoods of America
Being used as cannon fodder has nothing to do with the backgrounds of those sent. It only has to do with who is sending them to do what, and why.
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Old Oct 21st 2017, 12:38 pm
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Default Re: Gold star families

Originally Posted by Leslie
We will never hear from or about most Gold Star families. They go on with their lives and their heartbreak and never talk to the media and never get used as a political football. I think it's a comfort, albeit a small one, to have their loved one honored posthumously. The worst thing about losing somebody is the fear that they will be forgotten. Think of how much worse it is for those who lose them when they are still young. That's why the ceremonies and rituals matter.

Some people will be attention whores and/or martyrs. That's always the case with everything. It doesn't mean that everybody in the same situation behaves that way, quite the opposite I would think.
I agree that ceremonies and rituals matter, as do honour and remembrance. I look at my own son though and what I really cannot tolerate is the idea of his loss - because I would never forget him. And if he had been sent to kill and be killed so that oil companies' continued supply of cheap petroleum was assured - for example - I would want nothing at all from government/country/people who did that. Let alone a licence plate holder. This is just young people being killed and that should not be reframed as anything else to make it more acceptable to the rest of us so that the killing may continue. "Gold star families" are "families where someone has been killed", plain and simple. But I digress.

Last edited by Lion in Winter; Oct 21st 2017 at 12:45 pm.
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Old Oct 21st 2017, 1:35 pm
  #33  
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Default Re: Gold star families

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter
I agree that ceremonies and rituals matter, as do honour and remembrance. I look at my own son though and what I really cannot tolerate is the idea of his loss - because I would never forget him. And if he had been sent to kill and be killed so that oil companies' continued supply of cheap petroleum was assured - for example - I would want nothing at all from government/country/people who did that. Let alone a licence plate holder. This is just young people being killed and that should not be reframed as anything else to make it more acceptable to the rest of us so that the killing may continue. "Gold star families" are "families where someone has been killed", plain and simple. But I digress.
I don't think you are digressing but making a valid point. Do Canada, the UK, Australia etc have Gold Star Families? We as Brits or most of us posting in this thread are probably not used to this concept. Im sure all of these countries have repatriation ceremonies UK had Royal Woolton Bassett, Canada had the CFB Trenton and a 172 km journey on the 401 Highway Of Heroes.

Any loss is a tragic loss.
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Old Oct 21st 2017, 4:00 pm
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Default Re: Gold star families

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter
I agree that ceremonies and rituals matter, as do honour and remembrance. I look at my own son though and what I really cannot tolerate is the idea of his loss - because I would never forget him. And if he had been sent to kill and be killed so that oil companies' continued supply of cheap petroleum was assured - for example - I would want nothing at all from government/country/people who did that. Let alone a licence plate holder. This is just young people being killed and that should not be reframed as anything else to make it more acceptable to the rest of us so that the killing may continue. "Gold star families" are "families where someone has been killed", plain and simple. But I digress.
Your son will never be drafted and the draft system will never come back into being. It's been proved since Vietnam that an all volunteer army is by far the best option. Great big armies are also way out of date. We have now refined mass killing to far more efficient and sophisticated weaponry and far fewer personnel needed to handle them
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Old Oct 21st 2017, 4:04 pm
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Default Re: Gold star families

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
I don't think you are digressing but making a valid point. Do Canada, the UK, Australia etc have Gold Star Families? We as Brits or most of us posting in this thread are probably not used to this concept. Im sure all of these countries have repatriation ceremonies UK had Royal Woolton Bassett, Canada had the CFB Trenton and a 172 km journey on the 401 Highway Of Heroes.

Any loss is a tragic loss.
As ex-pats it's not really our business to find fault with the way Americans choose to mourn their fallen warriors.
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Old Oct 21st 2017, 9:04 pm
  #36  
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Default Re: Gold star families

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter
I agree that ceremonies and rituals matter, as do honour and remembrance. I look at my own son though and what I really cannot tolerate is the idea of his loss - because I would never forget him. And if he had been sent to kill and be killed so that oil companies' continued supply of cheap petroleum was assured - for example - I would want nothing at all from government/country/people who did that. Let alone a licence plate holder. This is just young people being killed and that should not be reframed as anything else to make it more acceptable to the rest of us so that the killing may continue. "Gold star families" are "families where someone has been killed", plain and simple. But I digress.
I don't disagree with anything you've said. I also think that any family that refused "gold star status" would be behaving in a perfectly reasonable manner. I was just commenting because it seems like we've heard more about gold star families in the past year than we have in the entire time it's been a thing.
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Old Oct 21st 2017, 11:06 pm
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Default Re: Gold star families

Originally Posted by Leslie
I don't disagree with anything you've said. I also think that any family that refused "gold star status" would be behaving in a perfectly reasonable manner. I was just commenting because it seems like we've heard more about gold star families in the past year than we have in the entire time it's been a thing.
That is also true.
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Old Oct 22nd 2017, 7:11 am
  #38  
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Default Re: Gold star families

Originally Posted by Shard
Anything those unfortunate families do is fair enough, given their sacrifice. However, the broader view is that they are perpetuating the flawed "honour myth" that is getting sons/daughters killed in the first place.

It acts as a feedback loop for those in dire circumstances for whom the military is one of their few options. Sign up, hopefully survive and benefit, and if not confer some societal status to your family through a gold star. Something a bit insidious in that.
This shows no understanding of how and why teens enlist, or the economics of higher education in the United States.

I have never met or heard of someone enlisting under the impression that the armed forces were an "employer of last resort" and I think that you just made that up as your worldview is "why would anyone ever sign up for the army unless forced?"

That is fine that you feel that way, but you need to understand that not everyone thinks like you or feels the same things as you do, and that includes the people who do actually enlist in the army.

The armed forces appeal to not all teens but a particular demographic of them, and it's not borderline poverty case poor things wandering the back streets of Harlem. Some join because they see it as a way to travel, some join because they are interested in engineering and hands-on projects, some join because they thrive in a highly structured and disciplined environment, some join because of a sense of patriotism. There are a million reasons.

It is seen as a very solid career choice that provides a lot of technical education and the ability to retire with pension after 20 years. Many people do just that, "retire" at age 38, go on to a second career and then retire for good with two pensions.

By the way, there are lots of higher education options in the US that prove cost-effective, as well as Pell Grants which cover heaps of the cost for lower-income families. It isn't all $60,000 a year private uni-or-bust, and the culture of the American workplace is that nobody particularly cares if you what university you went to. A university degree is a "do you have one or not" proposition.
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Old Oct 23rd 2017, 4:11 pm
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Default Re: Gold star families

Originally Posted by Hiro11
What a reductive, obnoxious and smug world view you have. First of all, the military is hardly a last refuge of the desperate. Secondly, the world isn't benign and the military is necessary for valid reasons. Thirdly, portraying Gold Star families as desperate for "societal status" and the deaths of those in the military as meaningless is offensive.

Shard: is there anything you like about the US? Seriously, anything? Everything you post can be perfectly predicted by thinking "what interpretation of this topic will pain the US in the worst possible light".
Well said.

This is that famous 'US/ British compassion gap' we hear so much about.
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Old Oct 23rd 2017, 4:34 pm
  #40  
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Default Re: Gold star families

I think the problem arises because the US in general is more of a rah rah society...whilst the Brits do it quietly...and there is nothing wrong with either IMO. US servicemen and families like to show their service and patriotism...in the UK not so much. It’s often been said on here that our relatives who have served on active duty don’t speak about it. We have had members who have served and have only mentioned it in passing when we have had threads discussing military conflict...but they have not wished to be drawn into conversation about it.

Whatever your views...those who sign up knowing that they could be sent into active duty are very brave indeed.
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Old Oct 24th 2017, 1:33 pm
  #41  
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Default Re: Gold star families

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter
I agree that ceremonies and rituals matter, as do honour and remembrance. I look at my own son though and what I really cannot tolerate is the idea of his loss - because I would never forget him. And if he had been sent to kill and be killed so that oil companies' continued supply of cheap petroleum was assured - for example - I would want nothing at all from government/country/people who did that. Let alone a licence plate holder. This is just young people being killed and that should not be reframed as anything else to make it more acceptable to the rest of us so that the killing may continue.
I feel the same way. I think any of us here with male family members who have US citizenship and are between the ages of 18 and 65--yes, that's the 'official' age parameter of Selective Service registration!!--feel very frightened about what happened during the US's Vietnam War, and sometimes wonder, "What if?"....

Originally Posted by dc koop
Your son will never be drafted and the draft system will never come back into being. It's been proved since Vietnam that an all volunteer army is by far the best option. Great big armies are also way out of date. We have now refined mass killing to far more efficient and sophisticated weaponry and far fewer personnel needed to handle them
I hope so, I really do. I truly hope the present administration feels this way.
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Old Oct 24th 2017, 2:20 pm
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Default Re: Gold star families

Originally Posted by WEBlue
I feel the same way. I think any of us here with male family members who have US citizenship and are between the ages of 18 and 65--yes, that's the 'official' age parameter of Selective Service registration!!--feel very frightened about what happened during the US's Vietnam War, and sometimes wonder, "What if?"....


I hope so, I really do. I truly hope the present administration feels this way.

The Vietnam situation will not be repeated, army officers who saw the recent PBS series commented on how today the losses sustained would be totally unacceptable.
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Old Oct 24th 2017, 2:33 pm
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Default Re: Gold star families

Originally Posted by carcajou
This shows no understanding of how and why teens enlist, or the economics of higher education in the United States.

I have never met or heard of someone enlisting under the impression that the armed forces were an "employer of last resort" and I think that you just made that up as your worldview is "why would anyone ever sign up for the army unless forced?"

That is fine that you feel that way, but you need to understand that not everyone thinks like you or feels the same things as you do, and that includes the people who do actually enlist in the army.

The armed forces appeal to not all teens but a particular demographic of them, and it's not borderline poverty case poor things wandering the back streets of Harlem. Some join because they see it as a way to travel, some join because they are interested in engineering and hands-on projects, some join because they thrive in a highly structured and disciplined environment, some join because of a sense of patriotism. There are a million reasons.

It is seen as a very solid career choice that provides a lot of technical education and the ability to retire with pension after 20 years. Many people do just that, "retire" at age 38, go on to a second career and then retire for good with two pensions.

By the way, there are lots of higher education options in the US that prove cost-effective, as well as Pell Grants which cover heaps of the cost for lower-income families. It isn't all $60,000 a year private uni-or-bust, and the culture of the American workplace is that nobody particularly cares if you what university you went to. A university degree is a "do you have one or not" proposition.
Enlistment is not a direct path to a degree paid for by the military, the two common routes are one of the five service academies or ROTC, both are competitive to be admitted the last statistic I saw was the army paid for around 12% of degrees for all for years. A service academy has a five year service requirement and ROTC has four.
Another sought after credential after service in the military depending on the MOS is a high level of security clearance.
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Old Oct 24th 2017, 3:22 pm
  #44  
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Default Re: Gold star families

I've heard far too many stories from people who were lied to by recruiters and ended up with qualifications that they gained in the military that aren't recognised anywhere else. They need a system where they can transfer these skills into real industry qualifications without having to repeat similar training over several years just to do something they already know.
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Old Oct 24th 2017, 7:16 pm
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Default Re: Gold star families

My nephew signed up with the Air Force straight out of high school. He was assigned to train as a repair technician for hospital, dental and laboratory equipment. He served for nine years did time in Germany and other places and when he finished his service stepped into a six figure civilian job doing the same thing. They even provided him with a secretary. Apparently trained technicians in this field of work are very hard to come by
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