Florida shooting

Old Feb 21st 2018, 6:21 pm
  #646  
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Default Re: Florida shooting

Originally Posted by RoadWarriorFromLP
You're not doing your side any favors. Frankly, you sound like a guy who should be restricted to slingshots made for kids.

The US has the highest homicide rate in the first world. So thanks for proving my point for me.
My side? I don't have a side. And clearly, stringing together a coherent and persuasive argument isn't your thing. Stick to the Lounge, sweetie.
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Old Feb 21st 2018, 6:23 pm
  #647  
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Default Re: Florida shooting

Originally Posted by Octang Frye
So you just want firearms out of the hands of civilians? I'm sure the BLM folk would agree with you.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/imag...7a-750-375.jpg
So a graph that looks pretty much like the "Civilians shot and killed by civilians" graph. Surprise!
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Old Feb 21st 2018, 6:27 pm
  #648  
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Default Re: Florida shooting

Originally Posted by Octang Frye
My side? I don't have a side. And clearly, stringing together a coherent and persuasive argument isn't your thing. Stick to the Lounge, sweetie.
You're too much of a fruit loop to realize that you sound entirely too enthusiastic.

Gun owners on the internet come off as religious fanatics. Zealots who failed any statistics class that they may have taken.

It sounds obsessive compulsive. Neurotic. The gun is compensating for some other deeper deficiency.

If gun owners didn't seem so unhinged, then I would be more sympathetic. But you sound as if you're a few sandwiches short of a picnic basket, so I'm not.
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Old Feb 21st 2018, 6:31 pm
  #649  
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Default Re: Florida shooting

I don't carry. I hardly touch my guns.
I'm not a religious fanatic. I don't fetish-ize guns. I have a large penis according to my wife. I drive a little Volkswagen.
I'm just a libertarian and a student of history.
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Old Feb 21st 2018, 6:44 pm
  #650  
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Default Re: Florida shooting

I still fail to see how advocating for reasonable 'checks and balances' (for want of a better term, I'm not running for office or seeking out peer review so come at me if you don't like my nomenclature) is in any way synonymous with advocating for complete disarmament. I know many might in a fit of hyperbole say they'd like to see it but we're all reasonable enough people know understand that can't and/or won't happen.

So we move on. I'm not against guns, truth be told I don't care about them, they are so unimportant to me as to barely register on my GAF-ometer, but I am against people being shot and killed with them (shock, horror). So are, I would wager, every single gun owner posting in this thread. Glad we're all on the same team. Now we all know that nobody is going to come and take away all the guns, so why, then, is there such pushback to simple things like closing private sale loopholes, or asking that a few more bits of paperwork are carried out before someone buys a gun? Let's get real here - the one group of people who should be advocating for tighter controls after incidents like this are gun owners. You'd think something as simple as avoiding guilt by association would be enough to call people together in coming up with real solutions to an obvious problem. And I understand many gun owners have made such gestures in the wake of the latest (in a long line) of school shootings, but is it too little, too late? I hope not.

But when you have incidents like this that continue to happen year after year can't you at least understand why some of us start to get a bit jaded? I want everyone who is physically and mentally competent enough to own a gun to be able to continue owning their guns, but it gets harder to support them the more stuff like this continues to happen especially when there's little or no movement from gun owners (NOT pointing out anybody in this thread, just the 'wider world') to meet in the middle, so to speak.
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Old Feb 21st 2018, 6:58 pm
  #651  
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Default Re: Florida shooting

Who are you and what have you done with Sultan of Swing?

Ultimately, the only way to prevent this to take the firearms out of circulation.
It's pointless to ban a firearm based on cosmetics alone. Remember Columbine happened during the "Assault Weapons" Ban of the Clinton Era.

The gun show loophole is a myth. All the restrictions imposed won't do anything.
The only solution is, to quote whatsherface, "Mr and Mrs America, hand 'em all in."

The antis just need to figure out how to make that happen.
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Old Feb 21st 2018, 7:00 pm
  #652  
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Default Re: Florida shooting

When gun owners online respond to mass shootings such as this by attacking the survivors for being angry or by peddling their guns as sacred, then they sound like narcissistic sociopaths.

When they use cliches such as "tragedy" (as if it's somehow surprising that a guy who would use a gun that was designed to shoot people to shoot people), then they sound as if they are obtuse or clueless.

That's the problem in a nutshell. Those reactions don't exactly encourage empathy for gun owners.

Instead, it makes reasonable people wonder which one of you will be the next one to fly off the handle. The guy who was the supposed "good guy with a gun" until he wasn't.
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Old Feb 21st 2018, 7:03 pm
  #653  
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Default Re: Florida shooting

RoadWarrior - that's called projection. It''s terrifying. Thank goodness you're not a gun owner.
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Old Feb 21st 2018, 7:08 pm
  #654  
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Default Re: Florida shooting

Originally Posted by Octang Frye
RoadWarrior - that's called projection. It''s terrifying. Thank goodness you're not a gun owner.
Your "I know you are but what am I?" whataboutism is straight out of the playbook of a six-year-old.

Adults won't be impressed. Sorry.
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Old Feb 21st 2018, 7:08 pm
  #655  
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Default Re: Florida shooting

Originally Posted by Octang Frye
Who are you and what have you done with Sultan of Swing?
Not quite sure what you're talking about, I've never said I was anti-gun. I don't agree with a lot of the arguments regarding keeping them, but just because I don't buy into the myth that they make you safer doesn't mean I am a gun-grabber either.

Originally Posted by Octang Frye
Ultimately, the only way to prevent this to take the firearms out of circulation.
It's pointless to ban a firearm based on cosmetics alone. Remember Columbine happened during the "Assault Weapons" Ban of the Clinton Era.
I was never in favor of a ban, cosmetic or otherwise. I always try not to get sidetracked into arguments regarding type, it does nobody any good because there is not a sliding scale of lethality. A gun's a gun, get shot in the right part of your body by one and you're dead. What it looks like has no bearing on this.

Originally Posted by Octang Frye
The gun show loophole is a myth. All the restrictions imposed won't do anything.
The only solution is, to quote whatsherface, "Mr and Mrs America, hand 'em all in."

The antis just need to figure out how to make that happen.
I disagree, there is middle ground if there is the will to find it. There just needs to be a better system in place to manage gun ownership. Not to restrict it, unless someone who would seek to own a gun isn't sufficiently equipped to own one.

This isn't the wild west anymore, nor is the US still a fledgling colony surrounded on all sides by enemies like Spain, or the largest navy in the world. We live in a society with rules, and gun ownership is just another relic of America's past that needs to evolve a bit in order to fit in with those rules.
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Old Feb 21st 2018, 7:16 pm
  #656  
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Default Re: Florida shooting

Well, I posted before - way back - what do you propose?
Just some ideas:
1. Ban semi-auto rifles? Remember, less than 300 people are killed by rifles.
2. Ban handguns? Most deaths are due to handguns.
3. Limit magazine sizes.
4. Tax ammunition.
5. Increase age to 21.
6. Insurance.
7. Buy-backs, followed by confiscation.

Just out of interest, whenever the terms "common-sense"/"reasonable" are used, this pops to mind as a counter argument you sometimes see:
The cake meme.
The cake | Gun Control Debate | Know Your Meme

What I'm trying to say, Sultan, is what would you consider middle ground? I'm willing to listen. I just don't see a way to get the toothpaste back in the cat.
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Old Feb 21st 2018, 7:20 pm
  #657  
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Default Re: Florida shooting

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing
gun ownership is just another relic of America's past that needs to evolve a bit in order to fit in with those rules.
Gun ownership two centuries ago was not so common. Guns were expensive and unreliable, with high odds that the gun would harm who was using it.

Guns become more common in the 20th century when they could be mass produced. It's actually a fairly recent phenomenon.

That, and the Supreme Court interpreted the Second Amendment as a militia rights amendment without any self-defense rights attached to it until the Heller case. So even that view is quite recent, i.e. something that emerged as a legal doctrine only after you relocated here.
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Old Feb 21st 2018, 7:23 pm
  #658  
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Default Re: Florida shooting

The Brown Bess was mass produced hundreds of years ago on a production line, way before Mr Ford thought of the idea.
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Old Feb 21st 2018, 7:34 pm
  #659  
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Default Re: Florida shooting

Originally Posted by Octang Frye
Oh boy... How many hundreds of millions of guns in the country? Gun owners are the problem? If we were really the problem there'd be blood on the streets every day.
Gun violence down in America.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.2ed33a79e830
There IS blood on the streets. Every. Single. Day.

Here we go again. Failure to acknowledge that the US has a massive, massive problem with guns is really the first symptom of the problem itself. And posts like the one above are absolutely illustrative of that.
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Old Feb 21st 2018, 7:43 pm
  #660  
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Default Re: Florida shooting

Originally Posted by Octang Frye
Well, I posted before - way back - what do you propose?
Just some ideas:
1. Ban semi-auto rifles? Remember, less than 300 people are killed by rifles.
2. Ban handguns? Most deaths are due to handguns.
3. Limit magazine sizes.
4. Tax ammunition.
5. Increase age to 21.
6. Insurance.
7. Buy-backs, followed by confiscation.

Just out of interest, whenever the terms "common-sense"/"reasonable" are used, this pops to mind as a counter argument you sometimes see:
The cake meme.
The cake | Gun Control Debate | Know Your Meme

What I'm trying to say, Sultan, is what would you consider middle ground? I'm willing to listen. I just don't see a way to get the toothpaste back in the cat.
Away you go again with leaping straight to "ban this, ban that." Two problems with this list (well, lots, actually, but two big ones): Sultan has already said, several times - and I agree with him - that a ban is not the answer, and that calling out specific weapons by type is not the answer. So if you want a list, how's this one?
  • Compulsory background checks
  • Compulsory licensing (of the shooter, not the gun, in the same way as drivers are licensed for a particular type of vehicle and can then drive any vehicle of that type
  • Compulsory third-party liability insurance - with the premium rates set according to market forces, and presumably variable dependent on where the gun is kept and how it is used


That'd be a start, no? And would require no amendments of any kind to the precious Second Amendment.
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