British Expats

British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   The Trailer Park (https://britishexpats.com/forum/trailer-park-96/)
-   -   Fax machines (https://britishexpats.com/forum/trailer-park-96/fax-machines-888333/)

Steve_ Dec 1st 2016 1:06 am

Fax machines
 
What is this American obsession with fax machines? Really.

Every business card and letter I get has got their fax number on it! Lost count of how many times people suggest I fax things to them. Or you can still buy "multi-function devices" with fax machines built in. No. Nonononono. Noooooooo. How about I use the scanner and e-mail it to you? Or I had to go to the doctors the other day in the US (believe me when I say I tried to avoid it) and I sat and watched the nurse print off the prescription and fax it to the pharmacy. You're aware you're sitting in front of a computer attached to the internet, right? Maybe this is some legal thing because it's a prescription.

Olly_ Dec 1st 2016 1:15 am

Re: Fax machines
 
I've wondered about this too.

Loads of places seem to want documents faxed so they can verify your identity but faxes are such poor resolution I have no idea how it's any use!

Verizon wanted a fax of my social security card and a utility bill recently, and didn't seem to have any way of accepting a scan attached to an email :unsure:

hmvsdog Dec 1st 2016 1:19 am

Re: Fax machines
 
I have seen a lot of companies accepting e-faxes. So, you use a fax machine to scan a document and send it to a number, and they get emailed with the scan.

Maybe cut out the middle man and let us directly email a scan? Is that innovation?

Steve_ Dec 1st 2016 1:21 am

Re: Fax machines
 
Yeah I had that with a US cable company, wanted a fax of my SSN card, forgotten that. It was like, this is a huge corporation and there's some idiot stood next to a fax machine waiting for it to pop out. Then they couldn't read it, I think I tried three times before they got it. And I bet said idiot standing next to the fax machine has got a master's degree.

Yes, you spent 5 years in university to work in Mega-Corp USA... as the person operating the fax machine.

Pulaski Dec 1st 2016 1:30 am

Re: Fax machines
 
When anyone tells me to fax a document, which doesn't happen very often these days, I ignore them and scan the document and email it. Except if they email me a PDF and tell me to print it, sign it, and fax it back, it which case I open the document in Adobe, add my signature from a file I have, create a stamp for the date, then redistil the PDF to lock the signature and date, then email it back. ..... I did an entire house purchase that way in 2012. The first time that mortgage generated a piece of paper that I saw was at the closing in the lawyer's office! :lol:

Steerpike Dec 1st 2016 4:16 pm

Re: Fax machines
 
I've been working in healthcare IT for the past 10 years now, and Faxes are one of my pet peeves. I agree with everyone posting here that faxing sucks, but - it is considered secure. Emailing a document is, fundamentally, not (guaranteed to be) secure. Now, if you use a secure email implementation, it 'can be' secure, but by default, if you go in and scan a doc, then attach it to email, and send it, that transmission may not be secure (from end to end).

The discussion gets very convoluted, because much of the transmission IS secure, and all of it 'can be' secure, but there are parts that can end up being sent unencrypted over the public internet.

If you use a typical web-based email service like gmail, and 'upload' the attachment through your browser (which is likely to be SSL encrypted), and if the recipient is using a like service at their end, and if the two mail servers (yours and, say, the doctor's office) communicate over an encrypted link, then the entire process is secure. But if you use a client such as outlook, and if your mail server does not enforce encryption between mail client and mail server, then the path from your desktop to your mail server may not be encrypted. Further, the path from your mail server (lets say, at mycompany.com) to 'their' mail server (let's say, at 'mydoctorsoffice.com') could be unencrypted. A lot of mail servers use 'speculative TLS' (I forget the correct term...) - that is, they 'ask for' TLS encryption, but if the target server doesn't support it, then they fall back to unencrypted and send anyway.

This article provides some background on how mail-server to mail-server encryption may or may not be used:
https://luxsci.com/blog/how-to-tell-...nsmission.html

Now, what are the chances of someone snooping in on these potentially unencrypted channels? Highly unlikely. But is it theoretically possible? Yes. But more to the point, any company in business in healthcare has to be ready to pass audits, and the use of insecure email can cause you trouble during audits.

I, as a company IT guy, can ensure everything under my control is encrypted, but what is very hard to do is refuse to accept an email from someone because 'their side' is not secure. A company accepting an email that 'could be' insecure is taking on a potential liability by accepting it, and the most basic, sad solution at the moment is - use fax.

Most banks and larger healthcare concerns provide 'secure message systems' these days; basically 'email' but one that requires you to connect directly to their systems over the internet on an ssl connection. These systems let you upload docs and communicate securely with the recipient.

SultanOfSwing Dec 1st 2016 4:45 pm

Re: Fax machines
 
I don't know. I much prefer to scan to PDF and email documents (and to receive them the same way). I do have an 'e-fax' number that allows me to receive faxes as a PDF on my email, though.

We do use a fax machine in our nursery because the yard manager there doesn't have an email, so I have to fax him plant lists when we need them and a text would be too cumbersome for a 10+ item list with plant names and sizes on there, so for that one very specific purpose, it's useful.

For credit applications, reprinted invoices, whatever else needs to go back and forth, I tend towards the PDF or GTFO philosophy.

Steerpike Dec 1st 2016 5:03 pm

Re: Fax machines
 
1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing (Post 12119040)
I don't know. I much prefer to scan to PDF and email documents (and to receive them the same way). I do have an 'e-fax' number that allows me to receive faxes as a PDF on my email, though.

We do use a fax machine in our nursery because the yard manager there doesn't have an email, so I have to fax him plant lists when we need them and a text would be too cumbersome for a 10+ item list with plant names and sizes on there, so for that one very specific purpose, it's useful.

For credit applications, reprinted invoices, whatever else needs to go back and forth, I tend towards the PDF or GTFO philosophy.

Be aware, most 'efax' solutions are also (potentially) insecure for all the same reasons as mentioned above for email. Most efax solutions let you send/receive emails through your normal email process, and the communication between your desktop (the mail client) and your mail server may not be secure. Use of a 'web based' mail service like gmail makes it secure, but if you use 'outlook', there's a risk.

If you use exchange, you are likely to be encrypted, but if you use POP/SMTP, that's where the issues arise. Go into the 'settings' for your service, and observe the 'advanced' tab. See attached image. Note that there are two settings for encryption. Both off by default. The good news is, most respectable mail services these days require you to choose encryption.

Some eFax services are guaranteed secure; but they typically require you to log into their website (ssl) and upload/download faxes.

Again, I'm not saying this is something to get worried about in general, just pointing out the issues.

Rete Dec 1st 2016 5:26 pm

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by Steve_ (Post 12118559)
What is this American obsession with fax machines? Really.

Every business card and letter I get has got their fax number on it! Lost count of how many times people suggest I fax things to them. Or you can still buy "multi-function devices" with fax machines built in. No. Nonononono. Noooooooo. How about I use the scanner and e-mail it to you? Or I had to go to the doctors the other day in the US (believe me when I say I tried to avoid it) and I sat and watched the nurse print off the prescription and fax it to the pharmacy. You're aware you're sitting in front of a computer attached to the internet, right? Maybe this is some legal thing because it's a prescription.


In a law office you need the fax not the email for the document to be considered received. It must have the time stamp on the faxed page. We would email the document and then have to fax it to the client and/or the court. I've only been retired for 1-1/2 years and that was the way it was then.

And for people, like myself, who will not and cannot afford a frivolous $600 iPhone or anything other than a mere flip phone and wouldn't buy it anyway because the phone charges are outrageous. I also do not have a scanner. I use the USP Store if I need to scan something.

SultanOfSwing Dec 1st 2016 5:46 pm

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by Steerpike (Post 12119053)
Be aware, most 'efax' solutions are also (potentially) insecure for all the same reasons as mentioned above for email. Most efax solutions let you send/receive emails through your normal email process, and the communication between your desktop (the mail client) and your mail server may not be secure. Use of a 'web based' mail service like gmail makes it secure, but if you use 'outlook', there's a risk.

If you use exchange, you are likely to be encrypted, but if you use POP/SMTP, that's where the issues arise. Go into the 'settings' for your service, and observe the 'advanced' tab. See attached image. Note that there are two settings for encryption. Both off by default. The good news is, most respectable mail services these days require you to choose encryption.

Some eFax services are guaranteed secure; but they typically require you to log into their website (ssl) and upload/download faxes.

Again, I'm not saying this is something to get worried about in general, just pointing out the issues.

Oh, I'm sure it isn't, but I only ever receive blank forms or invoices via e-fax, so there's no sensitive information going through that service.

scrubbedexpat091 Dec 1st 2016 5:50 pm

Re: Fax machines
 
Faxes are widley used in Canada as well.

As others have said its considered secure where email is not.

Working hotels any document with personal information on it could only be faxed.

My GP faxes patient info for the same reason. I asked them why they didnt email.

My wifes last job in Canada in real estate everything was still faxed if confidential.


I have no scanner at home and in general its easier to fax. I have no idea where to go to scan and email but I can name several places where I can fax.

But its rare that I ever need to fax or email documents. Maybe once or twice in the last 5 or 6 years.

AdobePinon Dec 1st 2016 6:25 pm

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by Steve_ (Post 12118569)
Yeah I had that with a US cable company, wanted a fax of my SSN card

For that, I would have told them to get lost.

dc koop Dec 1st 2016 6:56 pm

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by Steve_ (Post 12118559)
What is this American obsession with fax machines? Really.

Every business card and letter I get has got their fax number on it! Lost count of how many times people suggest I fax things to them. Or you can still buy "multi-function devices" with fax machines built in. No. Nonononono. Noooooooo. How about I use the scanner and e-mail it to you? Or I had to go to the doctors the other day in the US (believe me when I say I tried to avoid it) and I sat and watched the nurse print off the prescription and fax it to the pharmacy. You're aware you're sitting in front of a computer attached to the internet, right? Maybe this is some legal thing because it's a prescription.

I don't think there's any legal issue involved. My doctor sends the prescription straight through to the pharmacy on his computer and it's filled and ready for pick up a half hour later,

Maybe your doctor is just a sweet old fashioned kind of guy :lol:

scrubbedexpat091 Dec 1st 2016 7:15 pm

Re: Fax machines
 
Now that is a good idea. Direct sending of RX to the pharmacy. My doctor is 30 sommething and uses electronic prescriptions but he has to print them out and so I can take them in.

He like most doctors in my experience in Canada will not fax refills and patient has to come in for one otherwise the doctor cant bill for a visit.

I would love it though if the script could be sent in a head of time as you describe. Would save time.




Originally Posted by dc koop (Post 12119192)
I don't think there's any legal issue involved. My doctor sends the prescription straight through to the pharmacy on his computer and it's filled and ready for pick up a half hour later,

Maybe your doctor is just a sweet old fashioned kind of guy :lol:


Steerpike Dec 1st 2016 8:25 pm

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by dc koop (Post 12119192)
I don't think there's any legal issue involved. My doctor sends the prescription straight through to the pharmacy on his computer and it's filled and ready for pick up a half hour later,

Maybe your doctor is just a sweet old fashioned kind of guy :lol:

There are systems such as 'surescripts' that offer a secure interface between the doctor's office "EMR" program and many supported pharmacies. Completely bypasses the need for faxing or emailing. Works great but many smaller 'mom and pop' doctor's offices don't have the expertise to setup these types of interfaces and/or they don't want to pay for the service.

The good news is, all medical offices are required now to use some form of EMR (computerized practice management - Electronic Medical Record), and once you have that, interfacing in this manner does become easier.

dc koop Dec 1st 2016 11:12 pm

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 12119209)
Now that is a good idea. Direct sending of RX to the pharmacy. My doctor is 30 sommething and uses electronic prescriptions but he has to print them out and so I can take them in.

He like most doctors in my experience in Canada will not fax refills and patient has to come in for one otherwise the doctor cant bill for a visit.

I would love it though if the script could be sent in a head of time as you describe. Would save time.


I have a medication which I have to take permanently. When the refills run out I call the doctor. He sends a message to my pharmacy by computer which includes authorization for 5 more refills. When the pharmacy have filled the prescription they leave a voice mail message on my phone that it's ready for pickup.

thinbrit Dec 1st 2016 11:42 pm

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by Steerpike (Post 12119284)
There are systems such as 'surescripts' that offer a secure interface between the doctor's office "EMR" program and many supported pharmacies. Completely bypasses the need for faxing or emailing. Works great but many smaller 'mom and pop' doctor's offices don't have the expertise to setup these types of interfaces and/or they don't want to pay for the service.

The good news is, all medical offices are required now to use some form of EMR (computerized practice management - Electronic Medical Record), and once you have that, interfacing in this manner does become easier.

Pharmacies are not only used in human medicine. We write scripts for our animal patients. Why on earth would I want to invest the time and money in replacing our practice management software (Electronic Medical Record system) with one that ties in to a pharmacy network? I'm already scripting out the medication, a sale we would normally make in-house in our own pharmacy. The fax machine works just fine for us, especially as we just "print to fax" which creates a fax and sends via our fax machine.
I'm not aware of any veterinary practice management software that interfaces directly with a pharmacy network, nor do I have any intention of making a switch to one that does. I can't imagine that being a selling point.

On the animal side of medicine, I don't see the fax machine going anywhere for a long time.

http://img.memecdn.com/fax-i-give_o_698833.jpg

Zoe Bell Dec 2nd 2016 1:35 pm

Re: Fax machines
 
I had never used a fax machine until I came to Canada.

mrken30 Dec 2nd 2016 5:34 pm

Re: Fax machines
 
Some financial institutions in the UK still only use faxes or post, especially if you are an overseas customer.

Steve_ Dec 9th 2016 12:02 am

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by Steerpike (Post 12119011)
I've been working in healthcare IT for the past 10 years now, and Faxes are one of my pet peeves. I agree with everyone posting here that faxing sucks, but - it is considered secure. Emailing a document is, fundamentally, not (guaranteed to be) secure. Now, if you use a secure email implementation, it 'can be' secure, but by default, if you go in and scan a doc, then attach it to email, and send it, that transmission may not be secure (from end to end).

Faxes are way less secure than e-mail, any moron can spoof the sending number, how many calls do you get a day that claim to be from number X and it's someone in India trying to con you? Now if I can get into your SMTP I can spoof any e-mail address I want, but even basic SMTP implementations don't allow you to do that without a username and password.

Not that I disagree with your general comments about e-mail, one of my pet peeves are people who use webmail without SSL certificates, which Exchange and Office 365 force you to have, but various open source programs don't. The problem is that TLS and SSL do put an overhead on the server but seriously nowadays with how fast computers are, who cares?

Faxes though overall are way less secure. There are various ways of spoofing sending and receiving numbers and intercepting them over-the-wire.

Steve_ Dec 9th 2016 12:05 am

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by dc koop (Post 12119408)
I have a medication which I have to take permanently. When the refills run out I call the doctor. He sends a message to my pharmacy by computer which includes authorization for 5 more refills. When the pharmacy have filled the prescription they leave a voice mail message on my phone that it's ready for pickup.

I just went to the doctor and asked them why they did it that way and they said for new prescriptions for scheduled substances they have to do it that way for some reason. Didn't really get a good answer as to what that reason was. They can do refills and non-scheduled substances electronically.

Steve_ Dec 9th 2016 12:08 am

Re: Fax machines
 
From my new play, Service Economy USA:

"Mom, dad, you know all that money you spent on sending me to Trump University to get a Bachelor's Degree in Photocopying and Toner Cartridge Management and the tens of thousands of dollars I built up in student loans?"

"Yes son?"

"Well I've just gotten a job at Mega-Corp USA. I've been appointed the Vice-President of Fax Machine Operations."

"Does it come with health insurance?"

"Yes, $5,000 deductible and a $50 co-pay on prescriptions."

"You done good son."

"Maybe one day I'll be promoted to Executive Vice-President of Fax Machine Operations, then they'll let me change the toner. Or maybe even Vice-President of Corporate Twitter Account Communications."

"You can dream son, you can dream."

tom169 Dec 9th 2016 12:15 am

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by Steve_ (Post 12124979)
Faxes are way less secure than e-mail, any moron can spoof the sending number, how many calls do you get a day that claim to be from number X and it's someone in India trying to con you? Now if I can get into your SMTP I can spoof any e-mail address I want, but even basic SMTP implementations don't allow you to do that without a username and password.

Not that I disagree with your general comments about e-mail, one of my pet peeves are people who use webmail without SSL certificates, which Exchange and Office 365 force you to have, but various open source programs don't. The problem is that TLS and SSL do put an overhead on the server but seriously nowadays with how fast computers are, who cares?

Faxes though overall are way less secure. There are various ways of spoofing sending and receiving numbers and intercepting them over-the-wire.

The "From" header on any email can be spoofed incredibly easily too. Without some form of DKIM/SPF for the sender's domain that is validated by the receiver the receiver can't be sure it actually came from them.

Whilst I agree that for the web TLS should be standard and common practice, the termination of it is still incredibly CPU heavy and bound. The overhead to each transaction is crazy on a large-scale application.

Steve_ Dec 9th 2016 12:34 am

Re: Fax machines
 
True and seeing as I'm just setting up SPF validation of one of my domains I should have mentioned that. :lol:

markonline1 Dec 9th 2016 12:55 am

Re: Fax machines
 
We get pretty confidential stuff regularly faxed to the office. I had to send some paperwork to an insurance company whilst at work. They didn't use email, they told me to fax it (Geico). Can't say I'm really bothered about such things though. I find the wide use of cheques and old spice products on supermarket shelves weirder than the use of fax machines.

Olly_ Dec 9th 2016 12:57 am

Re: Fax machines
 
I still found it crazy that when I bought a car from a dealer in another state I handed over a cashiers check for the balance and drove it away without them doing any sort of validation on it - in the UK nobody in their right mind would let you drive a car away without cleared funds!

markonline1 Dec 9th 2016 12:59 am

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by Olly_ (Post 12125012)
I still found it crazy that when I bought a car from a dealer in another state I handed over a cashiers check for the balance and drove it away without them doing any sort of validation on it - in the UK nobody in their right mind would let you drive a car away without cleared funds!

I handed over a personal cheque and they let me drive off the forecourt LOL.

tom169 Dec 9th 2016 1:00 am

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by Olly_ (Post 12125012)
I still found it crazy that when I bought a car from a dealer in another state I handed over a cashiers check for the balance and drove it away without them doing any sort of validation on it - in the UK nobody in their right mind would let you drive a car away without cleared funds!

I guess they could have phoned the bank and made sure it was genuine... But as to the funds, a cashiers check guarantees it. (if it is genuine!)

Nutek Dec 9th 2016 1:01 am

Re: Fax machines
 
I took all of our fax machines out and threw them in the dumpster five years ago.

We had a boat load of the damn things. it was like walking into a 1980s episode of Dallas.

Lots of wailing at the time, but not one single issue since.

thinbrit Dec 9th 2016 1:26 am

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by Steve_ (Post 12124979)
Faxes are way less secure than e-mail, any moron can spoof the sending number, how many calls do you get a day that claim to be from number X and it's someone in India trying to con you? Now if I can get into your SMTP I can spoof any e-mail address I want, but even basic SMTP implementations don't allow you to do that without a username and password.

You do not need to know the SMTP server to spoof an email address. sigh.



Originally Posted by Steve_ (Post 12125001)
True and seeing as I'm just setting up SPF validation of one of my domains I should have mentioned that. :lol:

Sounds like a super secure setup :unsure:. Whilst SPF is important, it is just the very, VERY basics. It verifies a DOMAIN not an email address. It is merely a record that identifies which mail servers are permitted to send email on behalf of your domain.
Seriously, and I mean seriously. If you are responsible for your companies email then please hire a consultant. This is much more complicated than you surmise.

GeoffM Dec 9th 2016 4:57 pm

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by Steerpike (Post 12119011)
I've been working in healthcare IT for the past 10 years now, and Faxes are one of my pet peeves. I agree with everyone posting here that faxing sucks, but - it is considered secure.

I don't disagree with you - but when the output tray of the recipient's fax machine is unattended, a fax is as secure as boiling water in a chocolate teapot. So many times in a doctor's office or pharmacy I could have just reached over and taken some presumably sensitive documents. :thumbdown:

mrken30 Dec 9th 2016 5:03 pm

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by GeoffM (Post 12125499)
I don't disagree with you - but when the output tray of the recipient's fax machine is unattended, a fax is as secure as boiling water in a chocolate teapot. So many times in a doctor's office or pharmacy I could have just reached over and taken some presumably sensitive documents. :thumbdown:

Who boils water in a teapot? I get the point though. I have heard of people doing this and then wonder why the thing cracks on the range.

tom169 Dec 9th 2016 5:34 pm

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by GeoffM (Post 12125499)
I don't disagree with you - but when the output tray of the recipient's fax machine is unattended, a fax is as secure as boiling water in a chocolate teapot. So many times in a doctor's office or pharmacy I could have just reached over and taken some presumably sensitive documents. :thumbdown:

I agree. It's similar to leaving a computer unlocked.

mrken30 Dec 9th 2016 5:54 pm

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by tom169 (Post 12125538)
I agree. It's similar to leaving a computer unlocked.

This drives me crazy, just a little pet peeve. I deal with sensitive information and some employees are always leaving their machine unlocked.

GeoffM Dec 9th 2016 5:54 pm

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by mrken30 (Post 12125504)
Who boils water in a teapot? I get the point though. I have heard of people doing this and then wonder why the thing cracks on the range.

I see the confusion :rofl: I meant the presence of boiling water, not the act of boiling it!

mrken30 Dec 9th 2016 5:56 pm

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by GeoffM (Post 12125570)
I see the confusion :rofl: I meant the presence of boiling water, not the act of boiling it!

i haven't heard of anyone trying to put an electric kettle on a range, but I'm sure it has been done. There seems to be a lack of knowledge of kettles and teapots in the US.

tom169 Dec 9th 2016 6:03 pm

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by mrken30 (Post 12125569)
This drives me crazy, just a little pet peeve. I deal with sensitive information and some employees are always leaving their machine unlocked.

Indeed. At the last place I worked if someone noticed an unlocked computer they would send a department wide message saying they will bring donuts in for everyone. :rofl:

AdobePinon Dec 10th 2016 12:18 am

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by Olly_ (Post 12125012)
I still found it crazy that when I bought a car from a dealer in another state I handed over a cashiers check for the balance and drove it away without them doing any sort of validation on it - in the UK nobody in their right mind would let you drive a car away without cleared funds!

That's easy. They'd just report you for theft, and if necessary claim it back on their insurance.

Duncan Roberts Dec 10th 2016 12:33 am

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by Steve_ (Post 12124979)
Faxes are way less secure than e-mail, any moron can spoof the sending number, how many calls do you get a day that claim to be from number X and it's someone in India trying to con you? Now if I can get into your SMTP I can spoof any e-mail address I want, but even basic SMTP implementations don't allow you to do that without a username and password.

Not that I disagree with your general comments about e-mail, one of my pet peeves are people who use webmail without SSL certificates, which Exchange and Office 365 force you to have, but various open source programs don't. The problem is that TLS and SSL do put an overhead on the server but seriously nowadays with how fast computers are, who cares?

Faxes though overall are way less secure. There are various ways of spoofing sending and receiving numbers and intercepting them over-the-wire.

This is all totally irrelevant. Fax is legally secure, email is not unless it's a secure system like Zixmail. At least in healthcare. It's a little more complicated than that but in general that holds true.

Duncan Roberts Dec 10th 2016 12:42 am

Re: Fax machines
 

Originally Posted by thinbrit (Post 12119431)
I'm not aware of any veterinary practice management software that interfaces directly with a pharmacy network, nor do I have any intention of making a switch to one that does. I can't imagine that being a selling point.

They exist. They don't tie into a pharmacy network though, they tie in to an e-prescription service. I'm not familiar with the veterinary side of it but I know that Surescripts, which is the giant network in the US, does tie into veterinary software.


All times are GMT. The time now is 5:34 pm.

Powered by vBulletin: ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.