Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

I know lots of people have Amex here, for those with the Delta Amex, they are upgrading to the EMV chips... Not quite the same as chip and pin because you still have to sign but it can be used more easily in chip and pin machines (so I read online). I just called and requested a new card. Also Delta amex dropped international fees starting yesterday.

For those of you with target cards I heard the other day, that after the security issues around Christmas, Target will be switching their cards to chip and pin.

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

Not only that, but my wife went into Walmart yesterday where she tried to use our UK business card for a couple of things -- we have done many hundreds of times since being here with no problem and no pin number required -- and it was refused because they installed a new software that morning (she was told by the staff that it's now Walmart-wide) which if the card has a chip in it, you have now to input the pin. Needless to say, as we've not had to use it in ten years, she didn't remember it. Have dug it out now, and it works fine.

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

My new Delta Amex arrived yesterday morning, and didn't include any chip - looks like I'll be requested a new one in a few months.

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

Interesting that they mailed one so close to the release date but did not include the chip.... I just requested mine Friday.

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

I called on Friday to request mine... It arrived yesterday, chip included.

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

I have a chip and signature Chase Sapphire credit card, and last time I was in Walmart yes, it wanted me to use the chip and push it in the bottom of the reader rather than swiping, but no, it didn't need a pin, just the usual scrawled e-sig. Which is lucky, because I haven't got a pin for it.

So perhaps the machines are quite clever, and differentiate between the US bodge of chip and sig cards, and the overseas ones with pins.

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

Most chip cards have a list of preferred cardholder verification methods and it goes down the list until there is one the terminal supports. The big exception to this is US-issued AmEx which have no list so they fallback to the service code verification method which is signature. I'm not quite sure why AmEx does this and I know it caused problems overseas at first but I've heard those are mostly resolved.

Also, Walmart skips cardholder verification (at least signature, not sure about if they skip PIN) for small-value transactions the networks allow verification to be skipped on.

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

Not just Walmart, also Lowes, Home Depot, and most fast food restaurants AFAIK, and presumably a lot of other stores, but as discussed on another active thread, I don't shop at many brick-and-mortar stores.

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

Do NOT use chip and pin with the Sapphire card. They will give you a PIN number if you ask, but if you use chip and pin it counts as a cash transaction and interest at about 19% starts from the time of the transaction. There is no free credit period. Chase told me this when I asked for the pin for my card.

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

I'd read that Chase was going to issue a chip & PIN version of the Sapphire card sometime in 2014 but hadn't seen that this had happened yet. The current card is of the chip & signature variety. You would never be asked for a PIN during a normal purchase transaction in the US using one as far as I understand. Signature only. The only time you'd use a PIN would be in an ATM to get cash.

I can confirm though that when using US-issued EMV cards in Europe with the PIN transactions are not treated as cash advances. Including Chase Sapphire.

Has the Sapphire chip & PIN card come out already or was the Chase CSR mixed up about something?

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

Thankfully, this is 99% nonsense. Listen closely - they didn't say "will" - they said "may."

The Chase Sapphire Preferred does NOT officially support PIN for purchases - that is, PIN is only in the CVM list for unattended cash. Thus, if everything is configured correctly on the terminal end, the PIN will ONLY be requested for cash point transactions, thus the assumption is anything where the PIN is requested is coded as a cash transaction.

In reality, on other forums people HAVE been asked for their PIN and it still was coded properly as a purchase.

Bank of America takes this a step further, their cards actually DO HAVE PIN in the CVM list for purchases, it works at unattended ticket kiosks demanding a PIN, etc, but they STILL issue the same warning not to use the PIN in case it gets coded as a cash transaction.

While I can make no guarantees, the reality is that I've never, once, heard of a merchandise transaction getting incorrectly coded as a cash transaction on a Visa card.

Chase, is, however correctly stating how the card is set up to work - a PIN will only, in theory, be requested for cash. IF THE TERMINAL HONOURS THE CVM LIST PROPERLY. It is many times more likely for the terminal to be incorrectly doing online PIN when not in the CVM list than it is for it to be incorrectly coding purchases as cash (I mean, can you imagine how angry all their customers would be if all their purchases were billed as cash advances? Such a bug wouldn't just affect US cardholders, it would affect ANYONE using that terminal).

Bank of America, however, just has a massive miscommunication issue between their tech people and their customer service people. The card is configured to use the PIN for purchases if signature isn't possible, but customer service tells people the PIN will only be used for cash and warns them not to use it, incorrectly!

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

Am I the only one having major issues with my Delta Gold Amex at Walmart? Not sure what'll happen when I'm back in the UK in 3 weeks and 5 days...

It works fine with the Ingenico terminals used in self-checkout. However, at the Verifone terminals used in the regular lanes it fails probably 2/3 of the time. It just says "remove card" early before reading and says something about a card read error.

I had Amex replace the card, but the replacement behaves the same. Other chip cards work fine.

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

Just got this from AmEx today:

American Express is committed to protecting our Card Members. As part of our continued dedication to enhance the security of our products and services, we are excited to issue you a new Card with chip & signature technology that has additional features to protect you when used at participating retailers. You will receive your replacement Card for your account ending in <<snip>> within the next several days.

When your new Card arrives, please activate it by using the Amex mobile app, visiting americanexpress.com/activate or calling the number on the sticker on the front of the Card. You may continue to use your existing Card until your new Card is activated. For your convenience, your account number will remain the same, but please be aware that the four-digit security code on the front of your new Card will be updated.

Especially in today's environment, we understand that personal security is paramount. One of the many benefits you receive as a Card Member is our Fraud Protection Guarantee, which means you won't be held responsible for any fraudulent charges when you use your American Express Card.

If you have questions about your new Card with chip & signature technology, please see the Frequently Asked Questions available at americanexpress.com/chipandsignature.

Thank you for your continued Membership and we hope you enjoy your new chip & signature enabled Card.

Sincerely,

American Express Customer Care

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

Thank you Sue

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

Citibank issued me with a chip and pin card August last year, when I asked about the pin they gave me the cash advance pin.

According to citibank if used in an ATM it will be a cash advance, if used at a point of sale terminal it will be a normal credit transaction, alas I have not been out of the country yet to test it.

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

This is correct, the "cash advance PIN" is just an online-verified PIN. I'm glad Citi understands this, Bank of America tells people any transaction using it will be treated as a cash advance, which is utter nonsense.

That said, do you have a Citi Visa or Mastercard? Citi Visa cards are set up to NEVER ask for the online PIN for a purchase (only for a cash advance). Citi Mastercards will ask for the online PIN if the terminal doesn't allow signatures. That's not to say you WON'T be asked for the PIN on the Visa, but the card is set up so that you SHOULDN'T be if the terminal properly obeys the CVM list so it'll be rare.

Here's the exact setup (translated to plain English):

Citi Mastercard:

If at an ATM (unattended cash), ask for the online PIN, if this fails, move down the list.
If supported, ask for a signature, if this fails, move down the list.
If supported, ask for the online PIN, if this fails, move down the list.
If supported, attempt authorisation without verifying the card holder, if this fails, the transaction fails.

Citi Visa:

If at an ATM (unattended cash), ask for the online PIN, if this fails, the transaction fails. [note - this is the correct behaviour, I don't know why the MC says to move down the list on a bad PIN, thankfully no ATM should actually allow that]
If supported, ask for a signature, if this fails, move down the list.
If supported, attempt authorisation without verifying the card holder, if this fails, move down the list. [note - to where? there's nothing after this in the list to move on to!]

For comparison, the Bank of America Travel Rewards Visa:

If at an ATM (unattended cash), ask for the online PIN, if this fails, move down the list.
If supported, ask for a signature, if this fails, the transaction fails. [note - this makes more sense than the Citi cards - the Citi cards are set up so if the cashier says the signature doesn't match, the terminal should still attempt to push the transaction through!]
If supported, ask for the online PIN, if this fails, move down the list. [note - ideally this step would fail it too - but because Bank of America even tells people NOT to use their PIN - it makes sense as a temporary measure to try and move to no CVM if they get the PIN wrong]
If supported, attempt authorisation without verifying the card holder, if this fails, the transaction fails.

Now, I'm translating the actual EMV language to plain English to help everyone understand, so no one jump on me for my over simplistic descriptions of what happens!

P.S. NONE of these cards have an OFFLINE PIN. In many chip and PIN countries, terminals are set up to require an offline PIN (a PIN verified by the card instead of sent in to the issuing bank to verify).

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

A first for us yesterday - our US credit card was refused in Canada. This was in IKEA in Ottawa. Strangely enough, we'd used the credit card in the IKEA restaurant an hour earlier, but when we were going through the checkout on leaving the store, the checkout guy said they had new machines which did not have the swipe & signature facility, they were now only able to accept chip & pin cards. We didn't pursue this, we simply paid cash. But if this a trend in Canada, we'll start using our British debit card up there instead of US card.

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

I highly doubt what they said is actually true, I imagine a chip and signature card would work fine, so ask your American bank for a chip card.

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

Great information, thanks!!!

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

I think the PIN (in the US) is usually your zip code - though I could be wrong. That's what I get asked for most often by cashiers and also the metro (subway) ticket machines in NYC ask for it like asking for your PIN when using the CC.

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

Not at all. The PIN is completely separate from address verification (which ZIP code verification is part of).

The PIN is a four-digit (can be longer, but not in the US that I've ever seen - in fact, I've only ever seen longer PINs with UnionPay) number used as a secret password (knowledge factor). There are two types of PIN - online PIN and offline PIN. An online PIN is verified by the issuer, while an offline PIN is verified by the card. Offline PIN is what is used in the UK, whereas when you do get a PIN in the US it is usually online (and usually referred to as a cash advance PIN since that's the only thing they're used for normally, though some cards do allow it to be used for purchases as a backup, such as Bank of America cards and Citi {Citi Mastercard only, not Citi Visa})

The ZIP code is a US postcode (for foreign visitors, enter JUST THE NUMBERS from your postcode, then pad with zeroes to make a five digit number. This is supposed to work, but usually doesn't).

Both are technically knowledge factors, but the ZIP code is far less secure, especially in a small town with only one or two ZIP codes.

To be secure, transactions should be based on two of the three types of authentication factors:

1. Possession factors - things you HAVE (e.g. the physical card, your phone, etc)
2. Knowledge factors - things you KNOW (e.g. passwords, your address, etc)
3. Inherence factors - things you ARE (e.g. your signature, finger print, palm vein pattern, iris design, etc)

Technically, all credit card transactions satisfy this, but some factors are easier to duplicate than others. A traditional swipe and sign transaction and a modern chip and PIN transaction both use two factors.

The magnetic stripe card and the chip card are both possession factors. The chip is essentially impossible to copy, while the stripe has no copy protection. However, the physical magnetic stripe card has security features that are very difficult to copy (holograms, printing techniques, embossed name, multiple copies of the last digits, matching the card data to the stripe). An attentive cashier will be able to detect all but the best forged magnetic stripe cards. But this requires effort to detect from a working card, while the chip card just can't be forged in a functional manner.

Likewise, the PIN is a knowledge factor and your signature is an inherence factor (albeit one that is somewhat knowledge too, since you can change it). The difference is that the PIN is kept secret and can be instantly checked by machine. Not only is your signature visible to be learned by a thief (though that is easier said than done), it's also rarely checked by cashiers and if it IS checked they often are just putting on a show - few would even know what to look for to actually check a signature.

So, both systems use two factors... the difference is the quality of those factors. And chip and PIN is the vastly superior system in this regard.

Re: Delta Amex and EMV chips... Target too.
 

Wow. OK, thanks.