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Condo Building Collapse in Miami

Condo Building Collapse in Miami

Old Jun 30th 2021, 4:30 pm
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Default Re: Condo Building Collapse in Miami

Originally Posted by Steerpike
It also makes me wonder about the rather famous 58-story San Francisco condo building that started sinking the day it was completed about 10 years ago - "Millennium Tower". There's currently a plan underway to re-do the entire foundation at phenomenal cost - $100 million according to this article - https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorsp...d-15439863.php . It's currently sunk more than 18" and is leaning over 14".

I bet the residents of that luxury tower are not sleeping terribly well tonight.
Not if they keep rolling out of that sloping bed.


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Old Jun 30th 2021, 6:20 pm
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Default Re: Condo Building Collapse in Miami

Originally Posted by Steerpike
This story is fascinating to me! The engineering side of it is very interesting - how do tall buildings fail .
I have two excellent books "Why buildings fall down" and "Why buildings stand up" by Mario Salvadori. They are both fascinating.

I like to think that JonQ, our new civil engineer was influenced by them in his choice of career.

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Old Jun 30th 2021, 6:54 pm
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Default Re: Condo Building Collapse in Miami

Originally Posted by Giantaxe
I read that there have been a dozen sales in that building in the last year! I don't know what the disclosure laws are in Florida, but surely that 2018 structural engineers report should have been disclosed to buyers.
I know that disclosure laws in AZ are nowhere near as strict as the ones in CA, as an example. I can imagine FL, being a 'free-wheeling red state' is going to be on the 'buyer beware' side of things. In CA, our realtor practically had me write a book for disclosures when we listed for sale (several pages of extra paperwork, as it wouldn't fit in the 'form'). We got a 'CYA' letter from the original builder (who had dissolved the original company so not liable) at some point during our tenure basically saying 'bad things could happen', so we had to get engineering reports to counter his very vague references. We disclosed absolutely everything. We also sold during a real-estate boom during which people were willing to waive inspection rights altogether just to get into a place. In AZ, by contrast, our seller basically reported nothing. When I started to notice things, the neighbors confirmed these were issues known to my seller, but they weren't big enough to bother 'going after them'.

Additionally, surely, a reputable purchase inspection would have noticed the spalled concrete and flooding in the garage? That's a pretty tell-tale sign that rebar inside concrete is rusting.
When you buy into a 'condo' or 'town house' with an HOA, the inspectors typically focus on the interior space of the unit being purchased, not the common areas, because the structure and common areas are covered by the HOA, not the individual owner. Inspecting common areas typically requires access to locked areas (like the boiler room, pool equipment room, elevator mechanical room, the roof, etc) so involve coordination with building management, etc. When I bought my town house in AZ the inspector did look at the roof but did not look at the (common) pool, as an example, because the pool was in a separate area ('down the street'). And in my development, the roads are private and covered by the HOA, but were not mentioned (roads can be expensive!). In CA, we are in a development with 6,000 units, and the 'common areas' include 6 gymnasiums, 4 pools, a concert hall, movie theater, a fleet of mini-busses, 14 miles of private roads, and a whole lot more (all of which are paid for by our HOA dues). None of that was covered by our inspection.

I also wonder what lawsuits suing the HOA are going to do? After all, the HOA is basically the owners of each condo. So aren't they effectively suing themselves?
Some HOAs maintain 'officers and directors insurance' to cover the officers. HOA boards are typically volunteer positions filled from the owners, without any qualification requirements. HOAs do hire professional management companies to do the grunt work and to offer advice, but ultimately the decisions are made by a potentially unqualified volunteer group. I was once president of my HOA (San Francisco condo building) and it was a thankless task!
I heard an interview on CNN tonight from someone who said the HOA meetings were just people arguing about that report, so they gave up going to them! This really highlights a problem with large condo buildings. You need a majority vote to do anything, and especially in buildings with a high percentage of older residents, people don't want to spend anything on maintenance. It sounds like that is what may well have happened in this building, with fatal results. The letter from April written by the HOA president reads to me as one of exasperation that some owners were still questioning the need for a special assessment.
One of the articles I read suggested the state needs to make certain actions (repairs, etc) mandatory so that they are taken out of the hands of the board; this already happens with reserve analyses, etc (at least in CA). In my previous condo in AZ, the board and the residents at large seemed totally aligned in doing everything they could to minimize the monthly HOA dues. Some key repairs were simply not done so as to avoid a fee increase. I was glad to get out of there.

Originally Posted by yellowroom
Sounds like HOAs are a smaller scale reflection of what’s going on in government. Some people grasp the issue and understand that money is going to have to be spent to fix a serious problem. Others only see their bank balance and want to put off spending all the while there is “plausible deniability” that there is an actual problem, aka walking around with your eyes shut.
Good analogy!
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Old Jun 30th 2021, 7:15 pm
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Default Re: Condo Building Collapse in Miami

I often wonder if condos are more trouble than they are worth, seems every other day there is a nightmare condo story, and here in BC strata (similiar to HOA) insurance is through the roof, which makes insuring more costly for owners, you have so called luxury buildings with fairly significant issues, one building recently had a major water pipe burst (only a little over a year old) and flooded like 12 floors of units, oh and they don't put in floor drains, so if any unit has a dishwasher or bathtub or washing machine flood, the downstairs neighbor will probably see damage, hence why insurance is so costly now, too many claims for water damage.

Anything built in the 1990's is probably a leaky condo at some point, and may still be one, there is one problematic building that is a leaky condo that has been an ongoing saga since 1994, but because of a dispute between factions of owners, that led to an inability to manage and govern the necessary repairs to common property, eventually the saga ended up in court and a judge ordered special levies to fix the water ingress problems but that order came 22 years after the issue first started, and city had ordered repairs, and engineer reports said repairs were essential, all because a slight majority of owners didn't want to pay for the repairs, the building is still there, but lenders wont finance anything there, cash only if you want to buy there, about the lowest prices you will find in Vancouver, but still nearly 300,000 or more.

https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/2...dway-vancouver





Originally Posted by Giantaxe
I read that there have been a dozen sales in that building in the last year! I don't know what the disclosure laws are in Florida, but surely that 2018 structural engineers report should have been disclosed to buyers. Additionally, surely, a reputable purchase inspection would have noticed the spalled concrete and flooding in the garage? That's a pretty tell-tale sign that rebar inside concrete is rusting.

I also wonder what lawsuits suing the HOA are going to do? After all, the HOA is basically the owners of each condo. So aren't they effectively suing themselves?

I heard an interview on CNN tonight from someone who said the HOA meetings were just people arguing about that report, so they gave up going to them! This really highlights a problem with large condo buildings. You need a majority vote to do anything, and especially in buildings with a high percentage of older residents, people don't want to spend anything on maintenance. It sounds like that is what may well have happened in this building, with fatal results. The letter from April written by the HOA president reads to me as one of exasperation that some owners were still questioning the need for a special assessment.
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Old Jun 30th 2021, 7:46 pm
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Default Re: Condo Building Collapse in Miami

Originally Posted by Steerpike
I know that disclosure laws in AZ are nowhere near as strict as the ones in CA, as an example. I can imagine FL, being a 'free-wheeling red state' is going to be on the 'buyer beware' side of things. In CA, our realtor practically had me write a book for disclosures when we listed for sale (several pages of extra paperwork, as it wouldn't fit in the 'form'). We got a 'CYA' letter from the original builder (who had dissolved the original company so not liable) at some point during our tenure basically saying 'bad things could happen', so we had to get engineering reports to counter his very vague references. We disclosed absolutely everything. We also sold during a real-estate boom during which people were willing to waive inspection rights altogether just to get into a place. In AZ, by contrast, our seller basically reported nothing. When I started to notice things, the neighbors confirmed these were issues known to my seller, but they weren't big enough to bother 'going after them'.
I also disclosed everything I possibly could and even got a lawyer to review everything.

Here's an article on Florida disclosure laws. My cursory reading of it is that 2018 engineer's report should have been disclosed to potential buyers:

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...state-law.html

Originally Posted by Steerpike
When you buy into a 'condo' or 'town house' with an HOA, the inspectors typically focus on the interior space of the unit being purchased, not the common areas, because the structure and common areas are covered by the HOA, not the individual owner. Inspecting common areas typically requires access to locked areas (like the boiler room, pool equipment room, elevator mechanical room, the roof, etc) so involve coordination with building management, etc. When I bought my town house in AZ the inspector did look at the roof but did not look at the (common) pool, as an example, because the pool was in a separate area ('down the street'). And in my development, the roads are private and covered by the HOA, but were not mentioned (roads can be expensive!). In CA, we are in a development with 6,000 units, and the 'common areas' include 6 gymnasiums, 4 pools, a concert hall, movie theater, a fleet of mini-busses, 14 miles of private roads, and a whole lot more (all of which are paid for by our HOA dues). None of that was covered by our inspection.
I guess what I was referring to is that _if_ armed with that engineer's report from 2018, surely you would want to get what was referred to in the report inspected? I understand what you are saying about large developments, but that's part of the problem. There's an awful lot of stuff there that can go - expensively - wrong that you are partially responsible for. Of course, it's a big "if" as to whether those buyers had that report disclosed to them. Otoh, it appears that the worst visible damage was in the pool area and the garage beneath it. Wouldn't you take a look at these areas if buying? I mean, even just to see where you'd be parking?

This may highlight a difference from buying in a small building. When I bought my place in a two-unit building, the inspector did inspect visible common areas - the garage, the passageways, retaining walls, exterior of the building, foundation etc. Honestly, I wouldn't have bought without knowledge of the condition of those things. And, in fact. that inspection did reveal the biggest defect of the property - a retaining wall being undermined.

Originally Posted by Steerpike
Some HOAs maintain 'officers and directors insurance' to cover the officers. HOA boards are typically volunteer positions filled from the owners, without any qualification requirements. HOAs do hire professional management companies to do the grunt work and to offer advice, but ultimately the decisions are made by a potentially unqualified volunteer group. I was once president of my HOA (San Francisco condo building) and it was a thankless task!
Apparently this HOA had $2m in liability insurance - a drop in the ocean compared to what I suspect is going to be in lawsuits.

Ultimately, decisions are made by the individual condo owners. Even with the best run HOA, the directors of it cannot dictate how those owners are going to vote.

Originally Posted by Steerpike
One of the articles I read suggested the state needs to make certain actions (repairs, etc) mandatory so that they are taken out of the hands of the board; this already happens with reserve analyses, etc (at least in CA). In my previous condo in AZ, the board and the residents at large seemed totally aligned in doing everything they could to minimize the monthly HOA dues. Some key repairs were simply not done so as to avoid a fee increase. I was glad to get out of there.
I am not sure whether even CA has laws that mandate certain repairs. I have read of San Francisco condo buildings that have fallen into disrepair because a majority of owners systematically voted against assessments.

Last edited by Giantaxe; Jun 30th 2021 at 7:52 pm.
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Old Jun 30th 2021, 8:10 pm
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Default Re: Condo Building Collapse in Miami

Originally Posted by steveq
I have two excellent books "Why buildings fall down" and "Why buildings stand up" by Mario Salvadori. They are both fascinating.

I like to think that JonQ, our new civil engineer was influenced by them in his choice of career.
Thanks for that! They are both available on Amazon!
https://www.amazon.com/Books-Mario-S...ario+Salvadori

I will definitely get them both. Looks like the 'stand up' book is on kindle, which I prefer, but not the 'fall down' ...

I became fascinated by the amazing buildings going up in Dubai, and then got to wondering, 'how do they maintain these things?'. Like, how do you replace windows, how do you replace the antennas on the roof, etc. On the one hand, I read that "properly maintained concrete will last forever", but also, that "failure to deal with water incursion can cause even the most robust concrete structures to fail". I believe they re-did all the windows at the Empire State Building in 1991 (putting in energy-efficient windows, etc). And while the Dubai buildings are phenomenal, it's still quite impressive that they build the way they do in New York and Hong Kong, where buildings are shoulder-to-shoulder and populated by dense sidewalks on the street below. One dropped wrench, bolt, or screwdriver could easily kill a pedestrian below and you can't shut down major traffic areas just to do 'maintenance'.

Regarding the San Francisco building I mentioned above (the Millennium Tower), they made TWO design choices that are now being widely criticized: 1) they decided on a concrete design, rather than steel; concrete buildings are much heavier than steel buildings. And 2) they chose not to run the foundations down to bedrock, but rather, assumed the shorter foundations would somehow stabilize in the softer ground above the bedrock. Now they are faced with a $100 million+ retrofit to extend the foundations down to bedrock - not an easy task when you have a populated building. I have a friend who was involved in clearing out the basement areas in preparation for the project (removing air conditioning units). They had to design a custom drill rig that could go inside the basement without requiring the typical clearances above, capable of drilling hundreds of feet down. There are many lawsuits now in play, one of which is questioning why the city gave permits for the above controversial design choices (in SF, of all places, where earthquakes are common!). Every time I go into SF, I drive right past this building and I always get a momentary sense of anxiety as I wonder 'what if ...'! I'm very thankful for green traffic lights that keep me moving!
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Old Jun 30th 2021, 8:54 pm
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Default Re: Condo Building Collapse in Miami

Originally Posted by Steerpike
We disclosed absolutely everything. We also sold during a real-estate boom during which people were willing to waive inspection rights altogether just to get into a place.
One other point on this. A buyer waiving inspection rights doesn't affect the legal responsibility of the seller to disclose known issues etc. In fact, the attorney I spoke to said real estate booms caused an increase in post-purchase disclosure lawsuits. People pay $$$ for a property in a bidding war, and then get pissed off when they find things that they feel should have been disclosed but weren't.
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Old Jun 30th 2021, 9:25 pm
  #53  
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Default Re: Condo Building Collapse in Miami

Originally Posted by Steerpike
Thanks for that! They are both available on Amazon!
https://www.amazon.com/Books-Mario-S...ario+Salvadori

I will definitely get them both. Looks like the 'stand up' book is on kindle, which I prefer, but not the 'fall down' ...

I became fascinated by the amazing buildings going up in Dubai, and then got to wondering, 'how do they maintain these things?'. Like, how do you replace windows, how do you replace the antennas on the roof, etc. On the one hand, I read that "properly maintained concrete will last forever", but also, that "failure to deal with water incursion can cause even the most robust concrete structures to fail". I believe they re-did all the windows at the Empire State Building in 1991 (putting in energy-efficient windows, etc). And while the Dubai buildings are phenomenal, it's still quite impressive that they build the way they do in New York and Hong Kong, where buildings are shoulder-to-shoulder and populated by dense sidewalks on the street below. One dropped wrench, bolt, or screwdriver could easily kill a pedestrian below and you can't shut down major traffic areas just to do 'maintenance'.

Regarding the San Francisco building I mentioned above (the Millennium Tower), they made TWO design choices that are now being widely criticized: 1) they decided on a concrete design, rather than steel; concrete buildings are much heavier than steel buildings. And 2) they chose not to run the foundations down to bedrock, but rather, assumed the shorter foundations would somehow stabilize in the softer ground above the bedrock. Now they are faced with a $100 million+ retrofit to extend the foundations down to bedrock - not an easy task when you have a populated building. I have a friend who was involved in clearing out the basement areas in preparation for the project (removing air conditioning units). They had to design a custom drill rig that could go inside the basement without requiring the typical clearances above, capable of drilling hundreds of feet down. There are many lawsuits now in play, one of which is questioning why the city gave permits for the above controversial design choices (in SF, of all places, where earthquakes are common!). Every time I go into SF, I drive right past this building and I always get a momentary sense of anxiety as I wonder 'what if ...'! I'm very thankful for green traffic lights that keep me moving!
I don’t know anything about engineering, but the ESB always fascinated me. It was built almost 100 years ago. The workers had none of the safety/security equipment that is mandatory today. I have taken a tour of the Burj Khalifa in Dubai. While impressive, I have read that buildings in Dubai are not built to Western standards.

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Old Jun 30th 2021, 9:49 pm
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Default Re: Condo Building Collapse in Miami

Originally Posted by Jerseygirl
I have read that buildings in Dubai are not built to Western standards.
Well they are often built by British companies, and overseen by British consulting engineers.
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Old Jun 30th 2021, 10:10 pm
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Default Re: Condo Building Collapse in Miami

Originally Posted by steveq
Well they are often built by British companies, and overseen by British consulting engineers.
That is true…but I have read on our Dubai forums that specs for Dubai buildings leave a lot to be desired.

A few months ago we were talking to a guy here in Toronto who was delivering a crane. He said that he and his partner had been to Dubai to buy the crane. It was British, but it was not allowed to be taken back to the UK and used as it was 10 years old.

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Old Jun 30th 2021, 10:54 pm
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Default Re: Condo Building Collapse in Miami

Originally Posted by Steerpike
Some HOAs maintain 'officers and directors insurance' to cover the officers. HOA boards are typically volunteer positions filled from the owners, without any qualification requirements. HOAs do hire professional management companies to do the grunt work and to offer advice, but ultimately the decisions are made by a potentially unqualified volunteer group. I was once president of my HOA (San Francisco condo building) and it was a thankless task!
And this afternoon it comes to light that five of the seven member board resigned in 2019....

"The president of the board of the Florida condominium that collapsed last week resigned in 2019, partly in frustration over what she saw as the sluggish response to an engineer’s report that identified major structural damage the previous year.

Anette Goldstein was among five members of the seven-member board to resign in two weeks that fall, according to minutes from an Oct. 3 meeting, at a time when the condo association in Surfside was consumed by contentious debate about the multimillion-dollar repairs."

...

"Goldstein and some of the others later returned to the board, one just three weeks after stepping down, documents indicate."

A thankless task indeed!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...3bd_story.html

Last edited by Giantaxe; Jun 30th 2021 at 10:57 pm.
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Old Jul 1st 2021, 12:25 am
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Default Re: Condo Building Collapse in Miami

https://www.highrises.com/st-petersb...-place-condos/

The linked building, I personally watched it built for 2 years across from my former office. It is close to Tapa Bay, They dug piles maybe 150 feet deeo.. maybe 10 columns hold it uo. It is 30+stories.
I am no engineer but it was fascinating. I do not get how they attach the floors to the columns. I can imagine the pancake phenomenon
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Old Jul 1st 2021, 1:25 am
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Default Re: Condo Building Collapse in Miami

Originally Posted by RICH
https://www.highrises.com/st-petersb...-place-condos/

The linked building, I personally watched it built for 2 years across from my former office. It is close to Tapa Bay, They dug piles maybe 150 feet deeo.. maybe 10 columns hold it uo. It is 30+stories.
I am no engineer but it was fascinating. I do not get how they attach the floors to the columns. I can imagine the pancake phenomenon
I prefer more traditional buildings with tried and true designs, they may look boring but they work.

No engineer or architect but some of the modern designs make me dizzy just looking at them.




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Old Jul 1st 2021, 1:50 am
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Default Re: Condo Building Collapse in Miami

Originally Posted by Jsmth321
I prefer more traditional buildings with tried and true designs, they may look boring but they work.

No engineer or architect but some of the modern designs make me dizzy just looking at them.

Indeed. We need Little Lion to explain how that building even stands!
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Old Jul 1st 2021, 2:12 am
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Default Re: Condo Building Collapse in Miami

Any structural engineers here? Would the Florida condo have collapsed if it had been built with steel I-Beams instead of reinforced concrete?
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