Birthright Citizenship and Trump
Nov 2nd 2018, 3:44 pm
#76
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: East Seaxe
Posts: 72,493
Re: Birthright Citizenship and Trump
I do not agree that the numbers are that small to ignore. 7% of births is not minute and creates issues. As the report says we now have 1.3 million kids where both parents are undocumented and that ignores the many more where at least one parent is undocumented. This makes enforcement difficult eg ICE arrest an illegal immigrants but he or she has a US citizen child, what happens? This then leads to outrage and confusion with no clear direction on the right approach. If as you say this isn't a major issue then why have majority of countries changed their rules? And the numbers depends on who you want to believe, I can also bring different reports that show different amounts, I do not believe we have a clear picture of the true numbers anymore.
You say this is simply a ploy by Trump to whip up votes, the fact remains this has been an issue way before Trump and he was clear during the campaign this was an issue he would tackle.
As the article states the government do not track kids born to people on visit visas so we don't even know how many they are. The numbers above only relate to those undocumented in the US. I am Nigerian by descent and there are Nigerian forums same as Indian etc where tactics and advice is exchanged daily on how to go have kids in the US just to secure a passport. Which Nigerian doctors to contact on the US etc.
There is a thriving industry to help Chinese mother's come to the US to give birth and head back once the child secured a US passport. I believe in reciprocation, if you live in China the chance of you even getting a green card is so slim and next to impossible even if you get married to a Chinese citizen.
Also while the article states numbers fell from 2005 to 2015, we all know the number of people crossing the border has increased drastically over the past few years with the deteriorating economic situations in the likes of Honduras Guatamala etc. This means higher number of kids who will end up being citizens but whose parents are undocumented further creating a complicated and difficult situation.
Continuing to turn a blind eye just leads to bigger issues to be dealt with in the future and that is what has gotten us to this situation today. Many of these issues could have been sorted out ages ago but never was due to bipartisan politics and politicians thinking of the next presidential or mid term elections thereby just patching things and pushing along.
You say this is simply a ploy by Trump to whip up votes, the fact remains this has been an issue way before Trump and he was clear during the campaign this was an issue he would tackle.
As the article states the government do not track kids born to people on visit visas so we don't even know how many they are. The numbers above only relate to those undocumented in the US. I am Nigerian by descent and there are Nigerian forums same as Indian etc where tactics and advice is exchanged daily on how to go have kids in the US just to secure a passport. Which Nigerian doctors to contact on the US etc.
There is a thriving industry to help Chinese mother's come to the US to give birth and head back once the child secured a US passport. I believe in reciprocation, if you live in China the chance of you even getting a green card is so slim and next to impossible even if you get married to a Chinese citizen.
Also while the article states numbers fell from 2005 to 2015, we all know the number of people crossing the border has increased drastically over the past few years with the deteriorating economic situations in the likes of Honduras Guatamala etc. This means higher number of kids who will end up being citizens but whose parents are undocumented further creating a complicated and difficult situation.
Continuing to turn a blind eye just leads to bigger issues to be dealt with in the future and that is what has gotten us to this situation today. Many of these issues could have been sorted out ages ago but never was due to bipartisan politics and politicians thinking of the next presidential or mid term elections thereby just patching things and pushing along.
What are the actual negatives outcomes of this type of immigration? Specifically?
Would you not agree that we have far bigger problems in this country?
Nov 2nd 2018, 3:49 pm
#77
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: Birthright Citizenship and Trump
It's not complicated, and a blind eye has not been turned. All you have to do is allow US citizens to file for legal residence for their immediate family. I believe that is already the case, at least largely.
What are the actual negatives outcomes of this type of immigration? Specifically?
Would you not agree that we have far bigger problems in this country?
What are the actual negatives outcomes of this type of immigration? Specifically?
Would you not agree that we have far bigger problems in this country?
Nov 2nd 2018, 3:52 pm
#78
Forum Regular
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 50
Re: Birthright Citizenship and Trump
It's not complicated, and a blind eye has not been turned. All you have to do is allow US citizens to file for legal residence for their immediate family. I believe that is already the case, at least largely.
What are the actual negatives outcomes of this type of immigration? Specifically?
Would you not agree that we have far bigger problems in this country?
What are the actual negatives outcomes of this type of immigration? Specifically?
Would you not agree that we have far bigger problems in this country?
another angle, isn't that rewarding breaking immigration laws?
Yes there are other issues but this is an issue as well and they all need to be sorted out. Each election we spend more time talking about immigration that other important matters such as education infrastructure etc. It's consumed with immigration with both parties playing divide and conquer.
If there are no negatives why then have other countries ammendee their laws?
To discourage birth tourism, Australia, France, Germany, Ireland, New Zealand, South Africa, and the United Kingdom have modified their citizenship laws at different times, granting citizenship by birth only if at least one parent is a citizen of the country or a legal permanent resident who has lived in the country for several years.
This is also the Pproach we have taken so far with illegal immigration and now we have millions of people stuck in a limbo with no clear path to resolution. Now we have cities declaring as sanctuary cities creating a messy situation. The whole immigration system has failed and is overwhelmed, overstretched and ineffective.
Last edited by toluani; Nov 2nd 2018 at 3:57 pm.
Nov 2nd 2018, 3:56 pm
#79
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: East Seaxe
Posts: 72,493
Re: Birthright Citizenship and Trump
So I come into the US either though the border illegally or via a visit visa and over stay, have a child and the child immediately applies for me? At the moment yes the child can apply when he is 21. Are you suggesting the age is reduced or what happens until the child turns 21?
another angle, isn't that rewarding breaking immigration laws?
.
another angle, isn't that rewarding breaking immigration laws?
.
I'm just asking you what the negative outcomes are from this form of immigration and in the numbers stated. I understand that you don't like the method, but what are the negative outcomes?
Lawbreaking is very often avoided by simply changing the law. Laws are made by people, institutions and states to represent certain interests. They are changeable. Look at what is happening with the cannabis laws for example. There are a huge number of people in prison and/or with a criminal record - lawbreakers - for possession and use of small quantities. Now the laws are changing. People can openly do what was illegal until very recently. Needs change. Realities change. Laws change. To expend our energies and money on these children while we still have not solved child hunger, for example, seems to me to be a failure in priorities.
So - what are the specific negative outcomes?
Nov 2nd 2018, 4:04 pm
#80
Forum Regular
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 50
Re: Birthright Citizenship and Trump
I'm just asking you what the negative outcomes are from this form of immigration and in the numbers stated. I understand that you don't like the method, but what are the negative outcomes?
Lawbreaking is very often avoided by simply changing the law. Laws are made by people, institutions and states to represent certain interests. They are changeable. Look at what is happening with the cannabis laws for example. There are a huge number of people in prison and/or with a criminal record - lawbreakers - for possession and use of small quantities. Now the laws are changing. People can openly do what was illegal until very recently. Needs change. Realities change. Laws change. To expend our energies and money on these children while we still have not solved child hunger, for example, seems to me to be a failure in priorities.
So - what are the specific negative outcomes?
Lawbreaking is very often avoided by simply changing the law. Laws are made by people, institutions and states to represent certain interests. They are changeable. Look at what is happening with the cannabis laws for example. There are a huge number of people in prison and/or with a criminal record - lawbreakers - for possession and use of small quantities. Now the laws are changing. People can openly do what was illegal until very recently. Needs change. Realities change. Laws change. To expend our energies and money on these children while we still have not solved child hunger, for example, seems to me to be a failure in priorities.
So - what are the specific negative outcomes?
At the extreme it is also a way to infiltrate a country . Have a child with a US passport, take back to China for his upbringing and move back to the US as an adult who can get into the government or politics. Look at the situation with China's influence in Australia as an example. The likes of Russia can use it as a way to infiltrate and lobby internally?
We are actually spending more effort trying to manage the current situation which is very confusing and a massive waste of resources. If your view is the way to go then we should declare everyone is welcome and with no chance of deportation that way we can focus resources spent on enforcement on other issues. I don't agree with that view but at the moment we have a massively resourced cbp which is ineffective due to unclear enforcement of laws, turning blind eyes, sanctuary cities etc.
A better solution to me is finding a way to help those countries and reduce the need and desperation to walk thousands of miles to the US. There is a lot of corruption there so just giving aid doesn't help but I don't agree that everyone moving to the US Canada etc is the solution.
Last edited by toluani; Nov 2nd 2018 at 4:12 pm.
Nov 2nd 2018, 4:13 pm
#81
Forum Regular
Joined: Sep 2016
Location: Lone Star State
Posts: 239
Re: Birthright Citizenship and Trump
So if the US gives legal status to everyone who is here now illegally that will end the illegal immigration issue. No more illegals are going to show up right?........oh damm we have been down that road before. Reagan gave out amnesty in the 80's. All it did was send the message... get away with being in the US long enough and eventually they'll let you stay forever. And in the mean time all of your kids will be born US citizens.
Nov 2nd 2018, 4:22 pm
#82
Concierge
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 46,382
Re: Birthright Citizenship and Trump
It's not complicated, and a blind eye has not been turned. All you have to do is allow US citizens to file for legal residence for their immediate family. I believe that is already the case, at least largely.
What are the actual negatives outcomes of this type of immigration? Specifically?
Would you not agree that we have far bigger problems in this country?
What are the actual negatives outcomes of this type of immigration? Specifically?
Would you not agree that we have far bigger problems in this country?
Nov 2nd 2018, 4:33 pm
#84
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: East Seaxe
Posts: 72,493
Re: Birthright Citizenship and Trump
So if the US gives legal status to everyone who is here now illegally that will end the illegal immigration issue. No more illegals are going to show up right?........oh damm we have been down that road before. Reagan gave out amnesty in the 80's. All it did was send the message... get away with being in the US long enough and eventually they'll let you stay forever. And in the mean time all of your kids will be born US citizens.
What? What does this have to do with what I said?
Nov 2nd 2018, 4:36 pm
#85
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: East Seaxe
Posts: 72,493
Re: Birthright Citizenship and Trump
It has an impact on planning and resources, has an impact on schools etc. It creates a messy situation that makes enforcong immingration laws difficult as I explained earlier where you have an undocumented who now has a US citizen kid. What happens for the 21 years that the parent is undocumented? It is a main driver for illegal immigration which is an issue.
At the extreme it is also a way to infiltrate a country . Have a child with a US passport, take back to China for his upbringing and move back to the US as an adult who can get into the government or politics. Look at the situation with China's influence in Australia as an example. The likes of Russia can use it as a way to infiltrate and lobby internally?
We are actually spending more effort trying to manage the current situation which is very confusing and a massive waste of resources. If your view is the way to go then we should declare everyone is welcome and with no chance of deportation that way we can focus resources spent on enforcement on other issues. I don't agree with that view but at the moment we have a massively resourced cbp which is ineffective due to unclear enforcement of laws, turning blind eyes, sanctuary cities etc.
A better solution to me is finding a way to help those countries and reduce the need and desperation to walk thousands of miles to the US. There is a lot of corruption there so just giving aid doesn't help but I don't agree that everyone moving to the US Canada etc is the solution.
At the extreme it is also a way to infiltrate a country . Have a child with a US passport, take back to China for his upbringing and move back to the US as an adult who can get into the government or politics. Look at the situation with China's influence in Australia as an example. The likes of Russia can use it as a way to infiltrate and lobby internally?
We are actually spending more effort trying to manage the current situation which is very confusing and a massive waste of resources. If your view is the way to go then we should declare everyone is welcome and with no chance of deportation that way we can focus resources spent on enforcement on other issues. I don't agree with that view but at the moment we have a massively resourced cbp which is ineffective due to unclear enforcement of laws, turning blind eyes, sanctuary cities etc.
A better solution to me is finding a way to help those countries and reduce the need and desperation to walk thousands of miles to the US. There is a lot of corruption there so just giving aid doesn't help but I don't agree that everyone moving to the US Canada etc is the solution.
The rest is a strawman as I said none of those things.
It seems a bit unlikely that it's all some sort of Russian or Chinese plot to "infiltrate" the country. It would make a good movie though.
Nov 2nd 2018, 4:51 pm
#86
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: Birthright Citizenship and Trump
Nov 2nd 2018, 5:02 pm
#87
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jul 2015
Location: Panama City, FL
Posts: 2,055
Re: Birthright Citizenship and Trump
As I replied to Rete, the numbers entering this way are tiny as a percentage of the population. I doubt they have an impact on anything very much but that was what I asked you to provide - what data do you have that links resource problems here to this form of immigration specifically?
Nov 2nd 2018, 5:05 pm
#88
Forum Regular
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 50
Re: Birthright Citizenship and Trump
We will have to agree to disagree rhay the numbers are tiny, they are not tiny and it is a growing problem. That approach is why we now have 11m to over 30m undocumented depending on which source you want to believe and no clear path to resolve. Continuing to ignore 7% every year grows to a massive issue and ignoring it is just a way to pass the buck for someone else to deal with in the future.
Re infiltration, it's not as far fetched as you think, there are already issues in Australia regarding concerns of politicians with ties to the CCP.
We have a lot of both government and corporate espinage going on, you really think it's far fetched to use Chinese Americans especially for roles that are reserved for US citizens? We already have reports of the CCP trying to influence and corrce amerixan colleges or you think it's all a myth? Do some research and this is not me saying the US is perfect in this regard.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/12/12/australia-politician-sam-dastyari-quits-over-china-ties.html
Re infiltration, it's not as far fetched as you think, there are already issues in Australia regarding concerns of politicians with ties to the CCP.
We have a lot of both government and corporate espinage going on, you really think it's far fetched to use Chinese Americans especially for roles that are reserved for US citizens? We already have reports of the CCP trying to influence and corrce amerixan colleges or you think it's all a myth? Do some research and this is not me saying the US is perfect in this regard.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/12/12/australia-politician-sam-dastyari-quits-over-china-ties.html
As I replied to Rete, the numbers entering this way are tiny as a percentage of the population. I doubt they have an impact on anything very much but that was what I asked you to provide - what data do you have that links resource problems here to this form of immigration specifically?
The rest is a strawman as I said none of those things.
It seems a bit unlikely that it's all some sort of Russian or Chinese plot to "infiltrate" the country. It would make a good movie though.
The rest is a strawman as I said none of those things.
It seems a bit unlikely that it's all some sort of Russian or Chinese plot to "infiltrate" the country. It would make a good movie though.
Nov 2nd 2018, 5:12 pm
#90
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: East Seaxe
Posts: 72,493
Re: Birthright Citizenship and Trump
We will have to agree to disagree rhay the numbers are tiny, they are not tiny and it is a growing problem. That approach is why we now have 11m to over 30m undocumented depending on which source you want to believe and no clear path to resolve. Continuing to ignore 7% every year grows to a massive issue and ignoring it is just a way to pass the buck for someone else to deal with in the future.
Re infiltration, it's not as far fetched as you think, there are already issues in Australia regarding concerns of politicians with ties to the CCP.
We have a lot of both government and corporate espinage going on, you really think it's far fetched to use Chinese Americans especially for roles that are reserved for US citizens? We already have reports of the CCP trying to influence and corrce amerixan colleges or you think it's all a myth? Do some research and this is not me saying the US is perfect in this regard.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnb...hina-ties.html
Re infiltration, it's not as far fetched as you think, there are already issues in Australia regarding concerns of politicians with ties to the CCP.
We have a lot of both government and corporate espinage going on, you really think it's far fetched to use Chinese Americans especially for roles that are reserved for US citizens? We already have reports of the CCP trying to influence and corrce amerixan colleges or you think it's all a myth? Do some research and this is not me saying the US is perfect in this regard.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnb...hina-ties.html
