Rete

I don't usually post in the political threads. It is Brits against US politics normally and US born and raised participants are usually shown the door none too nicely.

I'm far from new to Trump and don't recall saying he made the decisions. Just that he brought them to the forefront.

According to your post above, he is no different than President Obama. He was a mouth piece only for those who pulled his puppet strings. Now there was a non-effectual president who is just as non-effectual in private life.

scrubbedexpat099

Obviously one is a lot cheaper than others, do not remember where but do remember seeing a series of posts from someone who was one her 4th Child and was complaining that she could get not get her B2 renewed s]despite having US Children, each of the previous 3 had been delivered in the US on Emergency Medicaid. She considered it an afforont that No 4 could not also be a US Citizen.

kimilseung

I have to object to this claim. I know my politics are almost in align with my wife's politics and she is an American. The same or similar politics are to be found both sides of the pond. Even the Bible belt crazies have a mirror in NI.
There are regular posters on both left and right who are American born.

toluani

I'm not clear on the point re one being cheaper as they are 2 seperate and different issues/categories. One is gaining citizenship by birth and the other by investment and they have separate requirements so let's leave investments out of this.

I really don't see why having a US citizen child means the child siblings are entitled to a B2 visa, they are not and each visa application will be processed on its merit. Also this will prevent such issues given the child would not have been a citizen unless one of his parents was a citizen or green cardholder. The child would have taken the parents cotozenshio which I assume in this case would be British. If the parents later gets a green card the kids would all get it as dependents if they are within the age limit, all at same time.

The issue at hand is does the 14th ammendment include non citizens and non LPRs including illegal immigrants? This has never been clarified and is now a loophole being abused. If congress will not act then the executive order makes sense as this will force the issue to the supreme Court. If the court interpretes the ammendment to say the founding father's wrote that ammendment to include everyone including illegal immigrants then fine and it they disagree then we know where we stand. If you do your research the ammendment was written to ensure recently freed slaves and their children where not deprived of citizenship, it was not written for people to simply fly in or cross the border illegally to have babies for citizenship.

The main bone of contention is what does the bolded below mean? Does it mean everyone including illegals or citizen and and permanent residents?

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws

The closest ruling was United States v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) where the Court ruled the 14th ammendment covered Chinese citizens who were kids of legal permanent residents who were impacted by the Chinese exclusion act. It has never been confirmed to include illegal immigrants so it needs to be confirmed once and for all.

Also it's very clear and common knowledge birth tourism takes place and is not proper so we need to close the loop hole. If you think it's wrong then why is it fine for the likes of the UK, Australia and all of europe to stop it but the US has to continue despite rampant abuse. It is clearly a factor in illegal immigration and makes implementing immigration laws so difficult.


​
​​​​​​
[UOTE=Boiler;12586474]Obviously one is a lot cheaper than others, do not remember where but do remember seeing a series of posts from someone who was one her 4th Child and was complaining that she could get not get her B2 renewed s]despite having US Children, each of the previous 3 had been delivered in the US on Emergency Medicaid. She considered it an afforont that No 4 could not also be a US Citizen.[/QUOTE]

BritInParis

It’s a perfectly reasonable proposition to make given the trend amongst developed nations over the last forty years. Trying to do so through an executive order rather than a constitutional amendment is the bone of contention.

toluani

I agree with you that an executive order is not the best way to do this, but same with DACA congress refuse to do their job and this continues to be an issue which is not resolved. Every election is consumed by immigration issues and yet we never resolve it and keep doing the barest minimum and pushing the issue while it gets bigger and worse. This approach just creates bigger problems to deal with in the future.

So by signing an executive order what he wants is to be sued and it gets forced to the Supreme Court. If the court rules then it becomes law. With Kavanagh's nomination pushing the court to a conservative majority he is hoping the court will rule in his favor.

jkeller

^^^^^^^

scrubbedexpat099

Not sure this is something that can be done by Executive Order.

jkeller

This whole process is a lead up to force the Supreme Court to further define the 14th admendment on such matters.

BritInParis

If (and that’s a big if) the executive order does go ahead then it will potentially force the Supreme Court to consider the issue but I don’t agree that judges simply being ‘conservative’ would mean a positive verdict for Trump. Scalia delivered many ‘liberal’ verdicts based on his originalist interpretation.

toluani

I totally agree with you which is why I said he is hoping. Either way the Court rules we will have clarity.

scrubbedexpat099

Constitutional Amendment seems the only way.

toluani

This relates to a frustration I have where we tend to focus on protesting the president whoever that may be but somehow congress seem to coast under the radar. We need to put a lot of focus on congress to start putting the country ahead of bipartisan politics but I don't know if or how that will happen.

Lion in Winter

Maybe it isn't really that much of an issue. We don't have to accept the terms of an argument put forth by someone/people with a specific political agenda. The US is a vast country, and the number of children in question not that big in the grand scheme of things. I suspect this is just more of Trump using "immigration" to whip up his base. Far easier than dealing with things that really are problems, and guaranteed to get him votes.

"“The numbers are really quite small. Birth tourism is a reality, but I’m not sure it’s a very big reality in the scheme of things,” said Michael Fix, a senior fellow at the Migration Policy Institute". Whole article linked below.


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politic...ht-citizenship

toluani

I do not agree that the numbers are that small to ignore. 7% of births is not minute and creates issues. As the report says we now have 1.3 million kids where both parents are undocumented and that ignores the many more where at least one parent is undocumented. This makes enforcement difficult eg ICE arrest an illegal immigrants but he or she has a US citizen child, what happens? This then leads to outrage and confusion with no clear direction on the right approach. If as you say this isn't a major issue then why have majority of countries changed their rules? And the numbers depends on who you want to believe, I can also bring different reports that show different amounts, I do not believe we have a clear picture of the true numbers anymore.

You say this is simply a ploy by Trump to whip up votes, the fact remains this has been an issue way before Trump and he was clear during the campaign this was an issue he would tackle.

As the article states the government do not track kids born to people on visit visas so we don't even know how many they are. The numbers above only relate to those undocumented in the US. I am Nigerian by descent and there are Nigerian forums same as Indian etc where tactics and advice is exchanged daily on how to go have kids in the US just to secure a passport. Which Nigerian doctors to contact on the US etc.

There is a thriving industry to help Chinese mother's come to the US to give birth and head back once the child secured a US passport. I believe in reciprocation, if you live in China the chance of you even getting a green card is so slim and next to impossible even if you get married to a Chinese citizen.

Also while the article states numbers fell from 2005 to 2015, we all know the number of people crossing the border has increased drastically over the past few years with the deteriorating economic situations in the likes of Honduras Guatamala etc. This means higher number of kids who will end up being citizens but whose parents are undocumented further creating a complicated and difficult situation.

Continuing to turn a blind eye just leads to bigger issues to be dealt with in the future and that is what has gotten us to this situation today. Many of these issues could have been sorted out ages ago but never was due to bipartisan politics and politicians thinking of the next presidential or mid term elections thereby just patching things and pushing along.