Wolverine75

I hesitate to respond to your comment, because it is taking us far off the topic of the thread, but I will give you this piece of "evidence". (Granted, it was done by some podunk west-coast school that does not have the standing of Harvard or Johns Hopkins.)

https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-ne...bstinence.html


(I asked my wife if AA helped her father - her response was, "Oh, god, it saved his life." That may not mean much to you, but it means a lot to me.)

Wolverine75

A very intelligent response. You ARE angry.

Sadly, I thought that this thread was one where a vigorous, yet civil, discussion could take place; obviously not.

kimilseung

Are you just trolling? Looking to pick fights. This has already been commented on.

Wolverine75

Ah, I see - when you make (unfounded) comments, that is just putting in a post. When I make a comment contrary to your assertion, you call it "trolling". You and your close friend Shard deserve each other. I am not going to waste any more time on either of you. Enjoy your sandbox.

RICH

Bye Wolfie.

Shard

Says the guy posting in caps and complaining about ad hominem. A case of pot/kettle.

civilservant

Regardless of the inequities in the US, and there are many, it's difficult to assert that the world succeeds without the US also succeeding. We are needed in the community of nations, not to lead, but to be an important voice.

Are we a source of hope? I would argue that for many immigrants yes, rightly or wrongly.

Pax Americana worked for a period of time, like all Pax have, but that time is past.

ddsrph

As an American the concept of American exceptionalism has always been an embarrassment to me. It’s like the beautiful woman feeling compelled to keep telling people how beautiful she is. It’s much more meaningful to let her admirers make those comments if applicable. A better yardstick of our country would be the hordes of people from most countries of the world choosing to come here to live legally or illegally. We have always been hypocrites about human rights and governing evidenced by our support of dictators when we feel it’s in our national interest.

tht

While I agree theory... I was looking at a LinkedIn profile for a recent grad of a school I went to and she described herself as “a serial over-achiever” I don’t see how it works here? How does a country speak? It is it’s leaders and citizens who say that... so in your analogy it more like family saying how accomplished their daughter is...

ddsrph

I think the implication is the citizens who are saying how exceptional we are inferring it is do to the American people including themselves. It’s a mass self compliment.

Hiro11

As I said earlier on in this thread, I think no one criticizes America more than Americans. As is true in many countries, there are some who indulge in rah-rah boosterism and political rhetoric in speeches is often overheated. Still, in regular conversation I'd say most Americans are not shy with complaining about the various failings of the country.

Hiro11

I read it thirty years ago in high school and it made a huge impression on me at that time. Every once in a while a quote from it will pop up and I'll be reminded how prescient it was (I get the same feeling from John Stuart Mill). de Tocqueville was clearly a fan of the US but he was no partisan fool. He carefully and fully articulated both the US's strengths and weaknesses.

Some favorite quotes:
"Americans believe their freedom to be the best instrument and surest safeguard... to secure for themselves a government which will allow them to acquire the things they covet and which will not debar them from the peaceful enjoyment of those possessions." - the materialistic nature of Americans that so many complain about is both not new and largely endemic to America. Frankly, many people moved here to get more money. Few other countries focus on the "pursuit of happiness" to the extent that America does. To generalize, many Americans resent a government that tries to take their money or doesn't defend property rights. This is critical to understanding American political sentiment and outrage any time "socialism" (which is bandied about far too loosely) is mentioned.

"The American aristocracy is at the attorneys' bar and on the judges' bench." - this is important to understand in the context of the time. de Tocqueville uses "aristocracy" to mean the ultimate authority in all matters. de Tocqueville realized that without a sovereign or and "aristocracy", the primacy of the rule of law was central to a properly functioning America. Laws, lawyers and judges are uniquely powerful and uniquely important (for better or worse) in America for this reason. Witness the endless debate over lawsuits, Supreme Court nominations, the Constitution etc.

"In my opinion, the main evil of the present democratic institutions of the Untied States does not arise, as is often asserted in Europe, from their weakness, but from their irresistible strength." - Americans largely share this distrust of authority and government with de Tocqueville. Many Americans fear a government that is too strong and too invasive. Many Americans fear a government that acts by diktat, witness the furor around any executive action no matter how reasonable that action may be. I think these fears are part of American culture and are the subtext of debates from the gun control to health policy.

Shard

Very interesting, thanks for posting. Might have to put on my reading list too. There is certainly a different attitude towards government in the US compared to Europe, but paradoxically a reverence for corporations (particularly if employed by one). At some point the US might need to examine this. To some extent it's already being examined in the debate on social media, with services like Twitter holding more real power on freedom of speech than the government itself.

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OldJuddian

I had not realized until recently that America considers itself the worlds oldest democracy. There certainly is an American-centric world-view.

I expect more humility will come once it is not the only world superpower - just as happened to the UK.

kimilseung

It's my understanding that at the time of independence the franchise was smaller in the usa than in britain. I acknowledge that it might not be a straightforward comparison.