9th Circuit tosses Calif. concealed weapon rules
Feb 18th 2014, 6:58 pm
#241
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Location: West Sussex - did 3 years in the US...
Posts: 577
Re: 9th Circuit tosses Calif. concealed weapon rules
So, if you're not in favour of society or collective responsibility, I suspect you are all for disbandment of the police, fire, army, air-force ? How about education ? Or roads - maybe we should each build our own and not allow anyone else to drive on them ?
This is the dichotomy of America - I see FAR more awareness of a national identity and talk of binding society than in European countries. Yet, when it comes to the predominantly white, male, middle-class, they just appear scared that "their" way of life is being eroded by immigrants
Pure selfishness and greed.
Feb 18th 2014, 7:03 pm
#242
I have a comma problem
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Fox Lake, IL (from Carrickfergus NI)
Posts: 49,598
Re: 9th Circuit tosses Calif. concealed weapon rules
Ah - true Thatcherite. "There is no such thing as society." Luckily, she was proved wrong - and in her lifetime to rub her nose in it as well.
So, if you're not in favour of society or collective responsibility, I suspect you are all for disbandment of the police, fire, army, air-force ? How about education ? Or roads - maybe we should each build our own and not allow anyone else to drive on them ?
This is the dichotomy of America - I see FAR more awareness of a national identity and talk of binding society than in European countries. Yet, when it comes to the predominantly white, male, middle-class, they just appear scared that "their" way of life is being eroded by immigrants
Pure selfishness and greed.
So, if you're not in favour of society or collective responsibility, I suspect you are all for disbandment of the police, fire, army, air-force ? How about education ? Or roads - maybe we should each build our own and not allow anyone else to drive on them ?
This is the dichotomy of America - I see FAR more awareness of a national identity and talk of binding society than in European countries. Yet, when it comes to the predominantly white, male, middle-class, they just appear scared that "their" way of life is being eroded by immigrants
Pure selfishness and greed.
Feb 18th 2014, 7:47 pm
#243
Mions' a point.
Joined: Jun 2012
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Posts: 1,340
Re: 9th Circuit tosses Calif. concealed weapon rules
I was hoping for a practical answer. Where do folks keep their guns? I just can't imagine what people do. I personally don't have kids, so I can imagine leaving them in various strategic places around the house, but then ... what about when a friend stops by unexpectedly with his kids ... do I run around and 'put them away'?
And what do I do if I 'pop out to the store'? Do I then put them all away or leave them accessible? If an intruder breaks in while I'm out, they now have access to weapons they may not otherwise have considered using.
So it sounds like even the most 'accessible' guns in your home are at least 'trigger locked', which clearly addresses the 'safety' issue. Not knowing much about trigger locks, are they easy to unlock in a short moment? An obvious, classic scenario is that you are in bed at night and hear a noise 'downstairs'. This is the perfect opportunity for you to retrieve a gun, and unlock it, and then 'be ready'. Is that a highly likely scenario? Maybe it is. But I imagine a) coming home from dinner at night and finding someone already in your home, b) sitting in the living room watching TV, and hearing a noise 'somewhere in the house', c) having an intruder burst into your space and confronting you directly.
My biggest practical fear is that I would have a gun, shoot an intruder, but not kill/immobilize him, and therefore, essentially escalate the situation. I also imagine that many intruders are stupid kids looking for some fast money, who don't set out to murder - just rob. But they may have a gun to appear threatening, and they may be inspired to use it ONLY if confronted with a homeowner already wielding a gun. So now we have a scared (or high) kid, confronted by someone with a gun, who is now 'threatened' and starts shooting. Had I not had the gun in the first place, he may well just run out of the house when discovered/confronted.
And what do I do if I 'pop out to the store'? Do I then put them all away or leave them accessible? If an intruder breaks in while I'm out, they now have access to weapons they may not otherwise have considered using.
So it sounds like even the most 'accessible' guns in your home are at least 'trigger locked', which clearly addresses the 'safety' issue. Not knowing much about trigger locks, are they easy to unlock in a short moment? An obvious, classic scenario is that you are in bed at night and hear a noise 'downstairs'. This is the perfect opportunity for you to retrieve a gun, and unlock it, and then 'be ready'. Is that a highly likely scenario? Maybe it is. But I imagine a) coming home from dinner at night and finding someone already in your home, b) sitting in the living room watching TV, and hearing a noise 'somewhere in the house', c) having an intruder burst into your space and confronting you directly.
My biggest practical fear is that I would have a gun, shoot an intruder, but not kill/immobilize him, and therefore, essentially escalate the situation. I also imagine that many intruders are stupid kids looking for some fast money, who don't set out to murder - just rob. But they may have a gun to appear threatening, and they may be inspired to use it ONLY if confronted with a homeowner already wielding a gun. So now we have a scared (or high) kid, confronted by someone with a gun, who is now 'threatened' and starts shooting. Had I not had the gun in the first place, he may well just run out of the house when discovered/confronted.
If someone breaks into an occupied home I'd err on the side of caution. Thinking they're just kids on a lark is unlikely imo, I suppose you could ask a local cop about that.
I live in an apartment now (moved recently), near major train tracks: transients still walk tracks. For this reason I first and foremost lock my door, it's the simplest thing, chances are, the 'perp' (
) will just move down the hall trying handles until one is unlocked.I do not have children living at home and all the kids in my extended family have learned basic gun safety, many from me, a good thing in a society where there's almost as many guns as people. So my situation is a little different from young families. My better half has been to a firing range with me and understands how it works, she can fire and reload. I keep my gun in a pocket I made between my mattress and headboard. If anyone comes over with children, expected or not, I remove the drum (it's a revolver and the drum detaches completely) and the two pieces go to two places, neither of which is accessible to children. This is becoming rarer as my grandkid is getting older.
So if someone busts down the door and I'm in the living room? Correct, I do not have immediate access. I do have the option of going for it, which may well be better than not having that option. If I can't make it to the bedroom I'm sure as heck not going to be able to call the cops.
You may also be correct that you might end up with someone truly crazy. If folks can rage through pepperspray they could possibly take a hit or two, particularly with a small 22 like mine. However I can pull that trigger pretty quickly, and if that's a real concern there are handguns that could stop an elephant, like a Taurus Judge. I had one old timer tell me use a pump shotgun for home defense, that everyone understands that sound immediately.
Upshot? I don't know. I only 'installed' the pistol when I inherited it. I'm uncertain I could actually shot someone (pretty sure though), and hope and pray I never have to. It's also a great little plinker for the shooting range.
Pete
Feb 18th 2014, 8:18 pm
#244
Democracy advocate
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 12,460
Re: 9th Circuit tosses Calif. concealed weapon rules
Ah - true Thatcherite. "There is no such thing as society." Luckily, she was proved wrong - and in her lifetime to rub her nose in it as well.
So, if you're not in favour of society or collective responsibility, I suspect you are all for disbandment of the police, fire, army, air-force ? How about education ? Or roads - maybe we should each build our own and not allow anyone else to drive on them ?
This is the dichotomy of America - I see FAR more awareness of a national identity and talk of binding society than in European countries. Yet, when it comes to the predominantly white, male, middle-class, they just appear scared that "their" way of life is being eroded by immigrants
Pure selfishness and greed.
So, if you're not in favour of society or collective responsibility, I suspect you are all for disbandment of the police, fire, army, air-force ? How about education ? Or roads - maybe we should each build our own and not allow anyone else to drive on them ?
This is the dichotomy of America - I see FAR more awareness of a national identity and talk of binding society than in European countries. Yet, when it comes to the predominantly white, male, middle-class, they just appear scared that "their" way of life is being eroded by immigrants
Pure selfishness and greed.
I do wonder if being a Euro-leftist living in the US is bad for ones health, mental and physical? It does seem to take its toll on some people.
Feb 18th 2014, 8:22 pm
#245
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Re: 9th Circuit tosses Calif. concealed weapon rules
22LR is not a good choice, but as they say better than nothing.
I find it very difficult that anybody would break into a house for a laugh, or when breaking in they did not know the occupants may defend themselves.
And the idea the someone would have a laugh by breaking in armed is just ludicrous.
Yes there are small safes you can put by your bed, no I do not have one, yes there are large gun safes, have a look next time you are in Wal Mart etc.
Otherwise a quick Google?
I find it very difficult that anybody would break into a house for a laugh, or when breaking in they did not know the occupants may defend themselves.
And the idea the someone would have a laugh by breaking in armed is just ludicrous.
Yes there are small safes you can put by your bed, no I do not have one, yes there are large gun safes, have a look next time you are in Wal Mart etc.
Otherwise a quick Google?
Feb 18th 2014, 8:49 pm
#246
Joined: Apr 2005
Location: Milwaukie, Oregon
Posts: 9,965
Re: 9th Circuit tosses Calif. concealed weapon rules
I was hoping for a practical answer. Where do folks keep their guns? I just can't imagine what people do. I personally don't have kids, so I can imagine leaving them in various strategic places around the house, but then ... what about when a friend stops by unexpectedly with his kids ... do I run around and 'put them away'?
The other week 3 men were going around the town claiming to sell cleaning products. They had a panel van. If they knocked on a door and it wasn't opened they went around the house looking for somewhere to break in. If you opened the door they talked to you and if it was an elderly frail person they had tried to push they way in. I saw them pull up on my drive. One came to my door. I waited until he rang again and then he started to walk to the side of the house. So Mr Glock and I opened the door. He tried to sell me cleaning products and was still trying when the police cruiser pulled into the road.
My Glock is in a lockable quick fit holster, I just slipped it over my belt, it can be seen but very difficult for someone to snatch it off you.
Feb 18th 2014, 8:51 pm
#247
Northern Monkey!
Joined: Feb 2006
Location: Jacksonville, Fl
Posts: 530
Re: 9th Circuit tosses Calif. concealed weapon rules
I was hoping for a practical answer. Where do folks keep their guns? I just can't imagine what people do. I personally don't have kids, so I can imagine leaving them in various strategic places around the house, but then ... what about when a friend stops by unexpectedly with his kids ... do I run around and 'put them away'?
And what do I do if I 'pop out to the store'? Do I then put them all away or leave them accessible? If an intruder breaks in while I'm out, they now have access to weapons they may not otherwise have considered using.
So it sounds like even the most 'accessible' guns in your home are at least 'trigger locked', which clearly addresses the 'safety' issue. Not knowing much about trigger locks, are they easy to unlock in a short moment? An obvious, classic scenario is that you are in bed at night and hear a noise 'downstairs'. This is the perfect opportunity for you to retrieve a gun, and unlock it, and then 'be ready'. Is that a highly likely scenario? Maybe it is. But I imagine a) coming home from dinner at night and finding someone already in your home, b) sitting in the living room watching TV, and hearing a noise 'somewhere in the house', c) having an intruder burst into your space and confronting you directly.
My biggest practical fear is that I would have a gun, shoot an intruder, but not kill/immobilize him, and therefore, essentially escalate the situation. I also imagine that many intruders are stupid kids looking for some fast money, who don't set out to murder - just rob. But they may have a gun to appear threatening, and they may be inspired to use it ONLY if confronted with a homeowner already wielding a gun. So now we have a scared (or high) kid, confronted by someone with a gun, who is now 'threatened' and starts shooting. Had I not had the gun in the first place, he may well just run out of the house when discovered/confronted.
And what do I do if I 'pop out to the store'? Do I then put them all away or leave them accessible? If an intruder breaks in while I'm out, they now have access to weapons they may not otherwise have considered using.
So it sounds like even the most 'accessible' guns in your home are at least 'trigger locked', which clearly addresses the 'safety' issue. Not knowing much about trigger locks, are they easy to unlock in a short moment? An obvious, classic scenario is that you are in bed at night and hear a noise 'downstairs'. This is the perfect opportunity for you to retrieve a gun, and unlock it, and then 'be ready'. Is that a highly likely scenario? Maybe it is. But I imagine a) coming home from dinner at night and finding someone already in your home, b) sitting in the living room watching TV, and hearing a noise 'somewhere in the house', c) having an intruder burst into your space and confronting you directly.
My biggest practical fear is that I would have a gun, shoot an intruder, but not kill/immobilize him, and therefore, essentially escalate the situation. I also imagine that many intruders are stupid kids looking for some fast money, who don't set out to murder - just rob. But they may have a gun to appear threatening, and they may be inspired to use it ONLY if confronted with a homeowner already wielding a gun. So now we have a scared (or high) kid, confronted by someone with a gun, who is now 'threatened' and starts shooting. Had I not had the gun in the first place, he may well just run out of the house when discovered/confronted.
Along the lines of what i use, they are easy (if you have the key, of course) to get off if needed, familiarization and practice is the key. As for the different scenarios, then yes most of those i would be covered. I do have my CCW, and even if it may not be directly on my person at all times I do have one in the vehicle for the coming home and surprising someone scenario. But as i have mentioned before, no system can ever be perfect and guarantee 100% that nothing bad will ever happen, i just try and sway the risks in my favor a little where possible.
As to your second point. Absolutely that could happen, anything can happen, this is why i preach lots of practice and training, become familiar with your weapon(s) and how they react, and more importantly how you react to them. Of course nothing can prepare you for the nerves and fear that situations can provoke, but having a good knowledge of your firearms and training makes this process a lot easier and more automatic. The person you confront is going to have the same fears as you (if not more so due to the unfamiliar surroundings), your practice and preparedness can give you a big edge over them.
As callous as it may sound, you are in MY house uninvited i am not going to waste the time to let you explain yourself, i will be using whatever force necessary to neutralize the threat to me and my family. Whether you are just a teenage punk or a career criminal. They know the risks involved and still chose to carry out their illegal act then it is on them. If they stayed on the right side of the law and never put themselves or others in that situation then the world would be a happier place.
Last edited by jibsymalone; Feb 18th 2014 at 8:56 pm.
Feb 18th 2014, 9:36 pm
#248
Banned
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,154
Re: 9th Circuit tosses Calif. concealed weapon rules
I've read it previously. It was a deeply politicized ruling (as are most SC rulings) which many disagreed with at the time. Jefferson would be rolling in his grave if he knew how the idiots on the USSC had adjudicated.
Feb 18th 2014, 10:17 pm
#249
Democracy advocate
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 12,460
Re: 9th Circuit tosses Calif. concealed weapon rules
I keep mine locked in a gun safe, with a biometric lock. The safe is easily accessible from anywhere in the house. A box for my house alarm is near the safe, I have to pass the box to get to the safe. If I was in a situation where I needed a gun quickly I can hit the panic button on the alarm box as I go to the safe.
The other week 3 men were going around the town claiming to sell cleaning products. They had a panel van. If they knocked on a door and it wasn't opened they went around the house looking for somewhere to break in. If you opened the door they talked to you and if it was an elderly frail person they had tried to push they way in. I saw them pull up on my drive. One came to my door. I waited until he rang again and then he started to walk to the side of the house. So Mr Glock and I opened the door. He tried to sell me cleaning products and was still trying when the police cruiser pulled into the road.
My Glock is in a lockable quick fit holster, I just slipped it over my belt, it can be seen but very difficult for someone to snatch it off you.
The other week 3 men were going around the town claiming to sell cleaning products. They had a panel van. If they knocked on a door and it wasn't opened they went around the house looking for somewhere to break in. If you opened the door they talked to you and if it was an elderly frail person they had tried to push they way in. I saw them pull up on my drive. One came to my door. I waited until he rang again and then he started to walk to the side of the house. So Mr Glock and I opened the door. He tried to sell me cleaning products and was still trying when the police cruiser pulled into the road.
My Glock is in a lockable quick fit holster, I just slipped it over my belt, it can be seen but very difficult for someone to snatch it off you.
Feb 18th 2014, 10:33 pm
#250
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: East Seaxe
Posts: 72,493
Re: 9th Circuit tosses Calif. concealed weapon rules
Feb 18th 2014, 10:36 pm
#251
Banned
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,154
Re: 9th Circuit tosses Calif. concealed weapon rules
As a previous poster said, the US (especially the Southern States) are still stuck in the 1800's. As a European I cannot get over just HOW backward the United States is compared to Europe.
Feb 18th 2014, 11:58 pm
#252
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2011
Location: West Sussex - did 3 years in the US...
Posts: 577
Re: 9th Circuit tosses Calif. concealed weapon rules
My wife was taken ill last week whilst we were still in the US and whilst she was in bed, in agony, the hospital called up and said "just thought we'd let you know that whilst the procedure is covered on your 90% plan, the doctors aren't, so you will need to find $12,500 for your operation TOMORROW or else we can't do it..." Now, I know this is the wrong forum, but when you get that kind of treatment from the happy, smiley, have-a-nice-day land, it does put one in a bad mood. Does anyone CARE one jot about their fellow citizen here ? Nope - didn't think so...
Feb 19th 2014, 12:09 am
#253
Banned
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,154
Re: 9th Circuit tosses Calif. concealed weapon rules
Sorry - I've had a bucket full this week. And yes, I didn't get the sarcasm, and that's entirely my fault. Whoops :-)
My wife was taken ill last week whilst we were still in the US and whilst she was in bed, in agony, the hospital called up and said "just thought we'd let you know that whilst the procedure is covered on your 90% plan, the doctors aren't, so you will need to find $12,500 for your operation TOMORROW or else we can't do it..." Now, I know this is the wrong forum, but when you get that kind of treatment from the happy, smiley, have-a-nice-day land, it does put one in a bad mood. Does anyone CARE one jot about their fellow citizen here ? Nope - didn't think so...
My wife was taken ill last week whilst we were still in the US and whilst she was in bed, in agony, the hospital called up and said "just thought we'd let you know that whilst the procedure is covered on your 90% plan, the doctors aren't, so you will need to find $12,500 for your operation TOMORROW or else we can't do it..." Now, I know this is the wrong forum, but when you get that kind of treatment from the happy, smiley, have-a-nice-day land, it does put one in a bad mood. Does anyone CARE one jot about their fellow citizen here ? Nope - didn't think so...
Back to your point though; yes, it is utterly shameful that the richest (I refuse to use the word 'developed', as that's just a lie) country in the world is unable to provide a single payer healthcare system for its residents. That's what happens when you let scumbag ultra capitalists run the country.
Feb 19th 2014, 12:29 am
#254
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Joined: Jan 2011
Location: West Sussex - did 3 years in the US...
Posts: 577
Re: 9th Circuit tosses Calif. concealed weapon rules
What happened? Did you have to pay it? Weren't there any surgeons within your network to perform the operation?
Back to your point though; yes, it is utterly shameful that the richest (I refuse to use the word 'developed', as that's just a lie) country in the world is unable to provide a single payer healthcare system for its residents. That's what happens when you let scumbag ultra capitalists run the country.
Back to your point though; yes, it is utterly shameful that the richest (I refuse to use the word 'developed', as that's just a lie) country in the world is unable to provide a single payer healthcare system for its residents. That's what happens when you let scumbag ultra capitalists run the country.
How about ONE day when they DON'T recite the pledge of allegiance at school and instead say "I'm sorry that we don't look after you when you are ill even though we're the richest nation on earth."
Sorry - seriously off-topic now...
Last edited by dlake02; Feb 19th 2014 at 12:30 am. Reason: Off-topic... Ranting.
Feb 19th 2014, 12:35 am
#255
Banned
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,154
Re: 9th Circuit tosses Calif. concealed weapon rules
The surgery phoned my wife up whilst she was bleeding profusely knowing that she had to go in the next day. I may argue, or I may just take the money out of savings. There appears to be no national health advice of any type - they treat sick people like I'd try to find a bloke to lay a course of bricks. And to cap it all, instead of being given carers time off to look after her whilst she is ill, I'm docked 5 days pay ! WTF ?
How about ONE day when they DON'T recite the pledge of allegiance at school and instead say "I'm sorry that we don't look after you when you are ill even though we're the richest nation on earth."
Sorry - seriously off-topic now...
How about ONE day when they DON'T recite the pledge of allegiance at school and instead say "I'm sorry that we don't look after you when you are ill even though we're the richest nation on earth."
Sorry - seriously off-topic now...