2020 Election

Old May 30th 2020, 2:41 am
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by carcajou
The NHS is not "free." Even in places where universities are "free" they are not free. They are funded through public taxation. You pay, just not then and there. It never stops staggering me how many people on this site don't understand that. I've been through the maths on this site numerous times if how much worse off financially a substantial majority of Americans would be by switching to "free" (ha!) health care. Most Americans know how to use a calculator and could figure that out. Sanders is every bit the unelectable, dead end rabbit hole that Corbyn was.
Does that mean you believe people that can't afford it don't deserve healthcare? Since the US cost of healthcare is the highest in the world. it might be cheaper if you take the profit motive out of it.
I'm presuming you can afford healthcare, and you aren't concerned about those that can't.
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Old May 30th 2020, 5:25 am
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by johnwoo
Does that mean you believe people that can't afford it don't deserve healthcare? Since the US cost of healthcare is the highest in the world. it might be cheaper if you take the profit motive out of it.
I'm presuming you can afford healthcare, and you aren't concerned about those that can't.
It's the I got mine, screw you attitude.

I don't know anyone in the US who likes paying the obscene amounts they have to pay for healthcare, everyone I know complains about it, or doesn't have any, or has a high deductible plan they cant afford to use.





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Old May 30th 2020, 6:29 am
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by carcajou
The NHS is not "free." Even in places where universities are "free" they are not free. They are funded through public taxation. You pay, just not then and there. It never stops staggering me how many people on this site don't understand that. I've been through the maths on this site numerous times if how much worse off financially a substantial majority of Americans would be by switching to "free" (ha!) health care. Most Americans know how to use a calculator and could figure that out. Sanders is every bit the unelectable, dead end rabbit hole that Corbyn was.
I think most people on this site do fully understand that 'free' healthcare is funded through taxation. And I don't think even Sanders proposed 'totally' free healthcare (at point of service) did he? He proposed 'medicare for all', and medicare has point-of-service fees. I don't think he was proposing to abolish all POS fees. So I think you are exaggerating here. I personally think it was a bridge too far and think the more practical option is to improve on the ACA (get the monthly costs down and the deductibles down) - more chance of getting through congress.
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Old May 30th 2020, 8:01 am
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Default Re: 2020 Election

I can't say how the UK or elsewhere is, but generally in Canada if someone says healthcare is free they don't literally mean its free, but the point is its free at the point of service as in you can see a doctor and pay $0 at the time you see the doctor, healthcare is included in the taxes you pay, which really are not as high as people in the US seem to think, if you live in California and depending on deductions and income.

For me personally, I paid $0 in income tax last year after various tax credits I am eligible for, I get around $50 every 3 months for GST rebate to offset sales tax paid, and I get healthcare included. I don't love Canada, but tax wise and healthcare cost wise for me personally, I doubt there is anywhere in the US that compares.

Granted I am low income, but even if I made 65,000 a year, I'd still be better off in Canada vs California tax wise, federal + state + healthcare costs in California would exceed what I would pay in taxes here in BC.


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Old May 30th 2020, 11:55 am
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by johnwoo
Does that mean you believe people that can't afford it don't deserve healthcare? Since the US cost of healthcare is the highest in the world. it might be cheaper if you take the profit motive out of it.
I'm presuming you can afford healthcare, and you aren't concerned about those that can't.
Are you even aware of programs like Medicare and all of the nonprofit centres that exist specifically for the uninsured? You never post as though you are.

The minimal social conscience required to jack up costs while reducing benefits for hundreds of millions of Americans struggling to get by, all the while lying to them about "free" stuff, in the name of rigid ideology is breathtaking.

​​​
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Old May 30th 2020, 12:07 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by carcajou
The NHS is not "free." Even in places where universities are "free" they are not free. They are funded through public taxation. You pay, just not then and there. It never stops staggering me how many people on this site don't understand that. I've been through the maths on this site numerous times if how much worse off financially a substantial majority of Americans would be by switching to "free" (ha!) health care. Most Americans know how to use a calculator and could figure that out. Sanders is every bit the unelectable, dead end rabbit hole that Corbyn was.
If this is what you believe, frankly you're an idiot. I don't believe you're an idiot but making comments like that do you no favours. Who on earth do you think you are? You've explained numerous times how everyone is wrong and misguided (when they're not)??? Get over yourself.


Originally Posted by Jsmth321
I can't say how the UK or elsewhere is, but generally in Canada if someone says healthcare is free they don't literally mean its free, but the point is its free at the point of service as in you can see a doctor and pay $0 at the time you see the doctor, healthcare is included in the taxes you pay, which really are not as high as people in the US seem to think, if you live in California and depending on deductions and income.

This. Everyone knows this. For Carcajou to suggest anything other is idiotic.

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Old May 30th 2020, 12:51 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by carcajou
Are you even aware of programs like Medicare and all of the nonprofit centres that exist specifically for the uninsured? You never post as though you are.

The minimal social conscience required to jack up costs while reducing benefits for hundreds of millions of Americans struggling to get by, all the while lying to them about "free" stuff, in the name of rigid ideology is breathtaking.

​​​
Um, Medicare doesn't exist for the uninsured, it exists for the retired and you will out of pocket for vast expenses unless you purchase coverage additional to the Part A that you get as part of your social security benefit. The premiums on the additional purchases will run to hundred of dollars every month.

https://www.medicare.gov/your-medica...ts-at-a-glance

You are perhaps confused with Medicaid, which is for the very low-income.

Here are the income requirements for that.

https://www.policygenius.com/blog/a-...e-to-medicaid/


I'm not sure of the point of your gratuitous rudeness.
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Old May 30th 2020, 2:14 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter
Um, Medicare doesn't exist for the uninsured, it exists for the retired and you will out of pocket for vast expenses unless you purchase coverage additional to the Part A that you get as part of your social security benefit.
.
And, of course, the social security benefit is itself reduced by the deduction at source of the premium for the basic Medicare.
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Old May 30th 2020, 5:41 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter
Um, Medicare doesn't exist for the uninsured, it exists for the retired and you will out of pocket for vast expenses unless you purchase coverage additional to the Part A that you get as part of your social security benefit. The premiums on the additional purchases will run to hundred of dollars every month.

https://www.medicare.gov/your-medica...ts-at-a-glance

You are perhaps confused with Medicaid, which is for the very low-income.

Here are the income requirements for that.

https://www.policygenius.com/blog/a-...e-to-medicaid/


I'm not sure of the point of your gratuitous rudeness.
Presumably he enjoys being gratuitously rude. Which is too bad given he can post interesting stuff when he wants to.
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Old May 30th 2020, 8:30 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by carcajou
Are you even aware of programs like Medicare and all of the nonprofit centres that exist specifically for the uninsured? You never post as though you are.

The minimal social conscience required to jack up costs while reducing benefits for hundreds of millions of Americans struggling to get by, all the while lying to them about "free" stuff, in the name of rigid ideology is breathtaking.

​​​
No one mentioned free stuff, it's a question of social conscience. The "leader of the free world" should be able to provide healthcare of all it citizens.
I have first hand knowledge of people that can't afford healthcare/ dental care. I'm on medicare and it's not free, only for the very basic care, and you talk to me about "rigid ideology"
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Old May 30th 2020, 8:33 pm
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by Giantaxe
Presumably he enjoys being gratuitously rude. Which is too bad given he can post interesting stuff when he wants to.
Exactly - I enjoy many of his posts. Why in this case he's making such absurd accusations, I can't imagine. 'Everyone' knows that any form of 'free' healthcare is subsidized through taxes. There are some who lay into him, though, regardless of the quality of his posts so maybe he's feeling downtrodden
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Old May 31st 2020, 7:40 am
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by MMcD
Before hitting 'Reply' on my own post, I don't know why exactly...but something impelled me to jump way back and read through page one of this thread.
Glad I did (my god - what we've endured since Steerpike began this ).
In hindsight these initial posts put what I had written and what has taken place over the last few years - into an interesting perspective.
Here are a few of the opening messages:







Two men are directly responsible for Joe Biden having become the presumptive 2020 Democratic Presidential candidate.
Both are African American…

1) Barack Obama:
If Obama hadn’t (twice) chosen Joe Biden as his running mate, and Biden hadn’t been his Vice President for 8 years - he would not, in 2020, at the age of 77 (and having twice run for this office unsuccessfully in the past), have again thrown his hat into the ring.

2) Jim Clyburn:
If, at the end of February, South Carolina Senator Jim Clyburn had not, with the announcement of his endorsement, rescued and resuscitated what had disintegrated into a faltering Biden campaign - its death knell would have sounded long before the May primary.
Some of the candidates who quickly dropped out after the Clyburn endorsement likely wouldn’t have done so….
And Biden would have been 3 for 3 in his quixotic quest for the Presidency.

Instead, an injection of life-support was generated by Senator Clyburn’s endorsement. It unleashed a geyser of African American enthusiasm….and the rest, to this point, is history….
…So, what’s next?

Clearly, the Biden campaign’s African American support has become foundational.
It’s also existential.
That support is put to the test when he comes out with stupid remarks, as he did the other day when he challenged the authenticity of the blackness of any Trump-supporting African American.

Biden pledged to choose a woman for his running mate.
In the spirit of inclusiveness, and given that there are a spate of eminently qualified women of colour from whom to choose - there’s ample reason for that woman to be an African American.
More to the point - one African American woman, in particular, meets all the criteria he stipulated as essential:

She is Kamala Harris:

I didn’t vote for Joe Biden in the March Primary
Had Kamala Harris not have already dropped out - I wouldn’t have voted for her in March either.

Flash forward 6 months…

I’ll definitely vote for Joe Biden in November
With Kamala Harris as his running mate I’d cast that vote with a lot more enthusiasm.
And optimism.
And even some excitement.

And so, perhaps, might many African Americans - who, if they don’t see a ballot reflecting inclusiveness, might just “vote” to stay home.

If that happened, Joe wouldn't be the only loser!
I am curious what experience qualifies Harris even remotely to be President of the United States. Military experience ? Running a large organization ? Foreign policy experience ? Having extensive business experience ? Serious academic expertise ?
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Old May 31st 2020, 7:56 am
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by carcajou
Are you even aware of programs like Medicare and all of the nonprofit centres that exist specifically for the uninsured? You never post as though you are.

The minimal social conscience required to jack up costs while reducing benefits for hundreds of millions of Americans struggling to get by, all the while lying to them about "free" stuff, in the name of rigid ideology is breathtaking.

​​​
With all due respect it sees you may be unaware of the situation 'on the ground'. Sure there is Medicaid- if you qualify- and IF you can find a doctor who accepts. I have known people on Medicaid who had to travel distances to find doctor to accept, but for example those who didn't have a car or car has broke down couldn't reach doctor in many parts of the country without extensive bus or train services. Then people with income that precludes getting Medicaid but cant afford insurance premiums- or do then struggle for food or utility payments. People with insurance through employer but cant meet deductibles- there is a reason why some 20 to 30% of all bankruptcies due to medical bills.

America spends some 18% of GDP on health care yet millions have no insurance or uninsured, Britain spends 12% and everyone can get medical care. Considering medical outcomes ( for those who get medical care) the US is not 50% higher and for some measures may be slightly below other countries- no justification for the amount of expenditure on the medical care system.

What is breathtaking how anyone could even remotely consider the American health care system acceptable and not have empathy for those who suffer from it, or be blind to the effects of the system. Even the most ardent supporter of capitalism has to admit the system fails by any measure. Both parties are unable to develop together rational solutions, hence why recommendations like those of Sanders, which I don't consider optimal, are at least solutions in absence of any other solution. Republican and Democrat tinkering here and there with current system will not solve the overall problem, members of both parties in the Senate should be ashamed by the benefits they receive that the average American could only dream of.
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Old May 31st 2020, 10:26 am
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Default Re: 2020 Election

The funny thing is, I used to have the same belief and attitude towards it as many on this site - including the false and misplaced sense of moral superiority about the issue. Then after the Democrats got their clocked cleaned on the issue (the latest time, that is) I at first reacted indignantly, same as many here, and then sat down with a calculator and actually worked out the figures across a wide range of tax brackets, income groups and geographic locations. When I did that, I did so thinking single-payer was going to deliver major savings to the families and that their opposition was illogical. However, the reverse financial situation soon became obvious, and it became abundantly clear why there was so much opposition . . . and it was also very clear why so many of them were motivated to vote for Trump in 2016. I use the Australian system as a model because that was the one Obama pinpointed as a model and a template back in 2008 and 2009.

There seems to be an underlying assumption here, that the country exists between either the very rich or the destitute and every one else is just the invisible middle. Just because families aren't destitute, does not mean they are not vulnerable. These people make up the vast majority of the voting electorate - and they were the ones who suffered the most under the major price hikes the ACA wrought, and who will be creamed under a tax increase/service reduction package for single-payer. They know it, which is why the Democrats keep losing this group to the Republicans whenever health care reform becomes a major issue.

I am not going to argue with moneypenny20 again about the figures. Anyone who is motivated can pick up a calculator and see what will happen to vulnerable middle-class families when employer-based insurance goes out the window (which it likely will under single-payer) and a major tax increase is put in its place. When you open the hood on this issue, single-payer is not the cut-and-dried, black-and-white, good-vs-evil issue it is portrayed on this site to be. The unintended consequences alone will be enormous, on everything from capped public servant doctor salaries that might inspire a brain drain, to widespread public and private hospital classification issues. I have no idea why pointing this out inspires so much hatred and anger sprays on this forum.

If you are retired and living in a million-dollar or near-million-dollar home in the Bay Area, the money involved in the potential tax increase may seem trivial and you may struggle to understand what the big deal is all about. If you are a vulnerable family, the extra couple hundred dollars a month could break you and your family. To tell that group of people to sit down, shut up, and suffer in silence or risk a character attack and demonisation by a left-wing ideologue, is horrible.

And yes - I have relatives on both Medicare and Medicaid, and know precisely what they deliver and don't deliver.

Last edited by carcajou; May 31st 2020 at 10:53 am.
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Old May 31st 2020, 10:27 am
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Default Re: 2020 Election

Originally Posted by moneypenny20
If this is what you believe, frankly you're an idiot. I don't believe you're an idiot but making comments like that do you no favours. Who on earth do you think you are? You've explained numerous times how everyone is wrong and misguided (when they're not)??? Get over yourself.
I know, right? I questioned single-payer in the US context. Damn me to hell!
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