2020 Election
Oct 9th 2019, 11:57 pm
#1006
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Re: 2020 Election
But again that's a relatively recently usage of the word, as in "arts" versus "sciences". And even that distinction includes things like languages under the "arts" banner.
I know that 'art' can have many interpretations also ('the art of the deal' 
Oct 10th 2019, 12:12 am
#1007
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Re: 2020 Election
Certainly an interesting question. I can see how there's crossover in the 'middle' between the extremes. I'm assuming your encounters with this situation relate to children not completing assignments - solving a math puzzle, for example? The question is, are they failing to complete because they are lazy or because they are struggling mentally to do the task?
For simplicity, can we make an assumption that we are talking about a basic 'manual' task, such as 'clearing the snow' or 'cleaning a room'? That would eliminate some elements of cognitive struggles. I would think 'reward' is a key element of this. So if, for example, I say to someone, "I'll give you $10 to clear the snow", then the first question may be, is the reward sufficient motivation? If they turn down $10 but accept $20, I think we've established (or got closer to establishing) they are lacking motivation and/or, are 'lazy'. Also, if they completed the task 'last week' but don't want to do it this week, that may suggest this is not a mental issue.
Am I correctly understanding where you are going with this?
For simplicity, can we make an assumption that we are talking about a basic 'manual' task, such as 'clearing the snow' or 'cleaning a room'? That would eliminate some elements of cognitive struggles. I would think 'reward' is a key element of this. So if, for example, I say to someone, "I'll give you $10 to clear the snow", then the first question may be, is the reward sufficient motivation? If they turn down $10 but accept $20, I think we've established (or got closer to establishing) they are lacking motivation and/or, are 'lazy'. Also, if they completed the task 'last week' but don't want to do it this week, that may suggest this is not a mental issue.
Am I correctly understanding where you are going with this?
Oct 10th 2019, 12:19 am
#1008
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Re: 2020 Election
BA, BSc is how I've always thought of it. You graduate from university after studying History, French, Literature, etc - you get a BA. If you study Maths, Physics, Chemistry, you get a BSc. Although, I believe that Oxford/Cambridge give only BA's, even for science subjects. Presumably this is related to the historical usage you refer to.
Oct 10th 2019, 12:27 am
#1009
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Re: 2020 Election
Oct 10th 2019, 12:35 am
#1010
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Posts: 79,367
Re: 2020 Election
BA, BSc is how I've always thought of it. You graduate from university after studying History, French, Literature, etc - you get a BA. If you study Maths, Physics, Chemistry, you get a BSc. Although, I believe that Oxford/Cambridge give only BA's, even for science subjects. Presumably this is related to the historical usage you refer to.
Oct 10th 2019, 2:52 am
#1013
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Location: North Norfolk and northern New York State
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Re: 2020 Election
True, but fortunately folks who are not wealthy can get a good liberal arts degree too. In NY, instate tuition in state schools is modest, and, I believe, even more affordable in other states. In NY, there are a dozen or more liberal arts colleges in the SUNY system.
Oct 10th 2019, 7:33 am
#1015
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Re: 2020 Election
- Arts (fine arts, music, performing arts, literature)
- Philosophy
- Religious studies
- Social science (anthropology, geography, history, jurisprudence, linguistics, political science, psychology, sociology)
- Mathematics
- Natural Sciences (biology, chemistry, physics, astronomy, earth sciences)
Then doesn't that suggest 'most' degrees are in fact 'liberal arts' degrees? And that most colleges / universities are 'liberal arts' colleges? I guess 'engineering' is not listed, nor 'medicine', but regardless, it seems like such a broad label as to be somewhat redundant. In other words, when you say 'he has a liberal arts degree' vs 'he has a degree', what are you really achieving using the 'liberal arts' qualifier?
Last edited by Steerpike; Oct 10th 2019 at 8:54 am.
Oct 10th 2019, 8:52 am
#1016
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Re: 2020 Election
Yes you are understanding broadly where I was going. My thoughts these days, are that to avoid severe social unrest, as the economy continues to change, that a minimum income is needed, and that will remove any need to make such categories of worthy and unworthy beneficiaries. It would fit in with the "gig" economy that many younger people are adapting to, I think it would benefit the arts and creative small entrepreneurs. I dont expect it to be widely supported by all sectors of society, but it is where my thought are going these days.
So trying to fit that broader concept into this discussion about 'laziness' ... If you offer two people some reward for doing a task - shoveling snow - the one who volunteers for the task would seem to deserve more reward than the one who chooses not to bother. You may give the 'other' person some basic amount for subsistence, but it needs to be less than the 'working' amount for the system to function.
Would you advocate that both the working person and the non-working person should receive the same 'reward' (pay/income)? And if so, how do you get people to do all the unappealing jobs that are out there? Do you anticipate that people will voluntarily go out and shovel snow, or stand at a grocery store checkout all day, or work on a production line, when they could receive the same monetary reward by staying home?
Oct 10th 2019, 12:05 pm
#1017
Wondering if...
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Clarence, NY
Posts: 1,214
Re: 2020 Election
So establishing a 'baseline' income may be appropriate, but that baseline income needs to be lower than a basic job income, for practical reasons.
So trying to fit that broader concept into this discussion about 'laziness' ... If you offer two people some reward for doing a task - shoveling snow - the one who volunteers for the task would seem to deserve more reward than the one who chooses not to bother. You may give the 'other' person some basic amount for subsistence, but it needs to be less than the 'working' amount for the system to function.
Would you advocate that both the working person and the non-working person should receive the same 'reward' (pay/income)? And if so, how do you get people to do all the unappealing jobs that are out there? Do you anticipate that people will voluntarily go out and shovel snow, or stand at a grocery store checkout all day, or work on a production line, when they could receive the same monetary reward by staying home?
So trying to fit that broader concept into this discussion about 'laziness' ... If you offer two people some reward for doing a task - shoveling snow - the one who volunteers for the task would seem to deserve more reward than the one who chooses not to bother. You may give the 'other' person some basic amount for subsistence, but it needs to be less than the 'working' amount for the system to function.
Would you advocate that both the working person and the non-working person should receive the same 'reward' (pay/income)? And if so, how do you get people to do all the unappealing jobs that are out there? Do you anticipate that people will voluntarily go out and shovel snow, or stand at a grocery store checkout all day, or work on a production line, when they could receive the same monetary reward by staying home?
Oct 10th 2019, 12:44 pm
#1018
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Re: 2020 Election
Interestingly, to me, family is pretty much a small version of Socialism - we care for children, not expect them to go off and earn their own way, because we know for a period they need to be educated and probably can't compete very effectively when they can only crawl around and fail to use a common language with anyone else in the workplace.
In some cases, adults within the family unit may well stay at home to enable another to earn the crust - people accept the need to do something for the greater good of the "family".
Generally speaking, while the children in a family unit eventually have the chance to shine on their own, there still remains a support network in place, right up to an including inheriting everything, which may have been through no input they gave personally.
Healthcare is provided free at the point of need - children are not charged for the application of a plaster, or for needing a bed for a couple of days when they have the flu or a cold.
Given that (and yes, it's a stupid equivalence) it's not odd that some forms of Socialist policy may be appealing to the masses. Equally, each family is more than happy to compete with others for the available resources, and in any Communist State you can see Elites form and corruption become rampant. Therefore, Free Market Policies also have many supporters. Both are in our instinct - fight to survive, care for those around us.
It's my personal conclusion that Extremes of Right and Left are always doomed to fail, thanks to Human Nature. The trick is building a compelling case of a mix - that doesn't mean being in the middle, it means testing out policies to see what real impact they have, and judging them by how Society changes for the better or worse.
In some cases, adults within the family unit may well stay at home to enable another to earn the crust - people accept the need to do something for the greater good of the "family".
Generally speaking, while the children in a family unit eventually have the chance to shine on their own, there still remains a support network in place, right up to an including inheriting everything, which may have been through no input they gave personally.
Healthcare is provided free at the point of need - children are not charged for the application of a plaster, or for needing a bed for a couple of days when they have the flu or a cold.
Given that (and yes, it's a stupid equivalence) it's not odd that some forms of Socialist policy may be appealing to the masses. Equally, each family is more than happy to compete with others for the available resources, and in any Communist State you can see Elites form and corruption become rampant. Therefore, Free Market Policies also have many supporters. Both are in our instinct - fight to survive, care for those around us.
It's my personal conclusion that Extremes of Right and Left are always doomed to fail, thanks to Human Nature. The trick is building a compelling case of a mix - that doesn't mean being in the middle, it means testing out policies to see what real impact they have, and judging them by how Society changes for the better or worse.
Oct 10th 2019, 1:38 pm
#1019
Heading for Poppyland
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: North Norfolk and northern New York State
Posts: 14,540
Re: 2020 Election
As I confessed earlier, I had always misunderstood the meaning of 'liberal arts'. Given the meaning I now understand - to include all the 'core subjects', and specifically
Then doesn't that suggest 'most' degrees are in fact 'liberal arts' degrees? And that most colleges / universities are 'liberal arts' colleges? I guess 'engineering' is not listed, nor 'medicine', but regardless, it seems like such a broad label as to be somewhat redundant. In other words, when you say 'he has a liberal arts degree' vs 'he has a degree', what are you really achieving using the 'liberal arts' qualifier?
- Arts (fine arts, music, performing arts, literature)
- Philosophy
- Religious studies
- Social science (anthropology, geography, history, jurisprudence, linguistics, political science, psychology, sociology)
- Mathematics
- Natural Sciences (biology, chemistry, physics, astronomy, earth sciences)
Then doesn't that suggest 'most' degrees are in fact 'liberal arts' degrees? And that most colleges / universities are 'liberal arts' colleges? I guess 'engineering' is not listed, nor 'medicine', but regardless, it seems like such a broad label as to be somewhat redundant. In other words, when you say 'he has a liberal arts degree' vs 'he has a degree', what are you really achieving using the 'liberal arts' qualifier?
What is generally understood to NOT be liberal arts is vocational studies, professional studies, and the applied sciences. For instance, if you want to be a medical doctor, you’d probably do a four-year pre-med (liberal arts) then med school (professional training, not liberal arts.) My daughter studied geology (liberal art) then went to grad school to study environmental engineering (not liberal arts.)
I know, it’s a bit arbitrary. The liberal arts college I worked at created a computer sciences undergraduate department and major in the late 90’s. A lot of the faculty said it didn’t fit in a liberal arts curriculum, I don’t know.
Oct 10th 2019, 3:12 pm
#1020
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Re: 2020 Election
I like the irony of how it is a term used to complain about useless education, by those who require some education in what the term means.