Charlie Kuy

Hi,
I'm new here and living in Thailand. I have been getting some interesting news from Abbey saying that I can move money to Gibraltar and get around the British tax on retirement funds. QROP is the system they talk about, anybody have any experience with it or ideas. Thanks.

bakedbean

Hi Charlie and welcome to the forum. May I take it that you're on the Thai retirement visa then? Which part of Thailand are you living in? I used to live in Phuket.

If you go to the main Forum page on here, under Living & Moving Abroad, then do a search on QROPs. You'll find a number of different threads about them. Some quite lively threads too. I would suggest that you try that route rather than here in Thailand, as this is a general subject for British expats.

I have personally looked into QROPs and come to the conclusion that it is a pigs ear, mainly as HMRC continue to move the goalposts. Eg you used to be able to get QROPs in Singapore, but then HMRC arbitrarily decided to de-list Singapore and then all of a sudden all these folks who had bought into a Singapore QROPs had to pay back money, as it was then illegal. Mmmm not for me.

Patrick2976

Hi Charlie.

Gibraltar has indeed now achieved qrops status with HMRC last year. We tend to use Malta for the trustees as providers located there adhere strongly to the HMRC guidelines.

If you want some advice on qrops and transferring a UK pension overseas please feel free to PM me. They are not for everyone and can be a minefield but have many advantages in alot of circumstances.

Peter Crawley

One of the minefields is the issue of Double Taxation Agreements. I have just "googled" Malta's and cannot find Thailand. So, if this is correct, Malta could deduct up to 35% income tax on the income taken from a QROPS where the beneficiary is tax resident in Thailand.

I would guess, but I am not an adviser, that the 2.5% income tax deduction from Gibraltar is the reason that Gibraltar has been suggested. I am sure Gibraltar adheres strongly to the HMRC rules too.

PaulWyatt

I just wanted to clarify the position here. We all have opinions and there has certainly been changes in the QROPS market. However I think it is incorrect to be wary of the current market because of what happened in Singapore. To explain, Panthera Marketed Equity Trusts Singapore QROPS. They applied and were put on the HMRC register of QROPS. To do this they had to confirm to HMRC that they had a scheme which was open to local residents and that the scheme met the QROPS requirements. HMRC won a UK court decision which said that the scheme had never met the rules and so should not have stated they met QROPS requirements. So, they were never a QROPS. As a result, HMRC said all the transfers were incorrect and applied to each member for a 55% member charge. I think this is an example of a Trustee wrongly interpreting the rules rather than HMRC changing the goalposts. Whilst Guernsey was a complete surprise last year, HMRC rule changes have generally been to clarify things from a reporting and maximum benefits point of view. QROPS still can remain a very beneficial product for the right people if given the correct advice using the right trustee.

PaulWyatt

I can confirm that Malta does not have a DTA with Thailand.

bakedbean

Hi Paul. Thanks for the explanation re Singapore QROPs. So does that mean that, in theory, another provider in Singapore could be set up? Or has HMRC just blacklisted Singapore now due to one dodgy provider?

PaulWyatt

That's a good question, at this time, I don't think it would be feasible for another Singapore based QROPS as my understanding of the court ruling against Equity Trust was that the Singapore local legislation did not meet the HMRC requirements to be a QROPS. So, Singapore may need to change their rules before a scheme could meet the HMRC requirements. However, I would point out that my background is UK pensions and more recently Guernsey and Gibraltar QROPS, so I cannot claim any particular expertise in Singapore as a jurisdiction.
It seems the most commonly talked about "3rd party" jurisdictions for QROPS at the moment are Gibraltar, Malta and IOM.
Hope that helps.

bakedbean

Thanks for the info.

rusty747

Hi, I used Abbey to set up my QROPS a couple of years ago. At the time I was resident in Singapore but the QROPS was held in Guernsey. I was persuaded to move from Abbey to a Singapore IFA and it was a big mistake. I regret leaving Abbey. I found them to be honest and reliable and they were increasing the value of my fund. But be aware they have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Abbey National in UK.

bakedbean

Easy mistake to make though. So did you move from 1 QROPs to another QROPs? Is that kosher?

rusty747

Its the same QROPS - administrated by the same people (trustees) in Guernsey. Unfortunately, you have to go through an IFA to move funds around etc so you can change your IFA without affecting anything within your actual QROPS set up. It's just a different person that receives the 1% management fee!

bakedbean

Oh I see.... thanks. I'm still mulling over QROPs though probably won't do anything about it for a year or two, as I'm such a young thing <joke>

rusty747

The running and admin costs of a QROPS are quite high. Factor in about 2 - 2.5% pa despite what the IFA will tell you. He will take 1%, the scheme will probably have a flat rate which will be about another 1% and there will be a few other incidental costs as well. So, what are the benefits?
Greater choice of funds.
Tax free growth and income draw down
Pension available anytime after age 55. Up to 30% can be taken as a tax free lump sum.
Pension doesn't die when you die. You can leave the remaining funds to your family in your will.
And finally, if you are like me and a bit of a maths 'anorak' you can check your portfolio regularly and see how your investments are progressing. That can be a bit of a roller coaster ride. In any 2 year period the investment will almost certainly be up but its ups and downs along the way.

bakedbean

Thanks again. That's all interesting to know.