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Zimmerman Verdict

Zimmerman Verdict

Old Jul 22nd 2013, 12:52 pm
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Default Re: Zimmerman Verdict

Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
The bar is so high for Martin that basically being anything less than perfect means that he was asking for it.
Yup. The short skirt argument lives. "She shouldn't have been there alone at night. She should have ignored him. She shouldn't have aggravated him. She should have run away."
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Old Jul 22nd 2013, 12:57 pm
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Default Re: Zimmerman Verdict

Originally Posted by Caruthers View Post
My point is Obama argues for the right of legal jurisdiction in one case then questions it when the legal process delivers (an unfavourable verdict). But I suppose lawyers and politicians do that to suit their agendas.
Yes, of course they do. But race hasn't particularly been on Obama's agenda, whereas NSA snooping seems to definitely have been. I think Obama's sentiments about the Martin case were sincere but I suspect he was pressured into making the speech by both his constituency and his family.


Originally Posted by Caruthers View Post
I do pay attention. I voted for Obama once. I personally find the Democrats regrettably far too right wing so your Tea Party false alignment isn't relevant to me. And I suggest you don't polarize your assumptions into partisan distinctions as so many Americans here seem to do. Actually to me, politics here is all right wing bollocks to different degrees of nuttiness.

Obama's comments that I heard implied that the decision was not the right one by identifying with the victim. the very fact that he commented regardless of what he said, has issue. I don't know if the verdict was correct or not. I was not there (at the killing).

I personally remain indifferent to the whole race thing, as an intractable issue. As my original point, guns seem to be the underlying problem. The race issue is just the veneer.
They're two different and legitimate issues that run on seperate but often intersecting trajectories. Guns were the problem on that particular evening. Race was the problem in the subsequent events.
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Old Jul 22nd 2013, 1:05 pm
  #663  
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Default Re: Zimmerman Verdict

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Yup. The short skirt argument lives. "She shouldn't have been there alone at night. She should have ignored him. She shouldn't have aggravated him. She should have run away."
And I think it's laughable that some here are saying that Martin should have just run away. I think that particular sentiment, in a nutshell, shows how completely clueless and out of touch some are on this issue. Unless you've been living under a rock, everybody knows what happens to black men who run.
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Old Jul 22nd 2013, 2:24 pm
  #664  
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Default Re: Zimmerman Verdict

Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
..............The rest of your post, not so much.
You shock me.

Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post

......One had a black victim shot due in part due his own stupidity......
Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
........He failed to take actions which kept himself alive, the ultimate basic goal for any animal.
I match your retired rank in my own Force in my own country, but it shames me that anyone who should know better can come up with this kind of rationale.

It seems to me that this is the logic to avoid any culpability, any accountability; any responsibility.
This was what you were trained for? God help us all.

I don't care whether Trayvon Martin was a midget, or the green hulk. I care little whether he smoked pot; dealt pot or snorted shards of glass. On that day nothing NOTHING is more relevant than that a trigger happy little swine got out of his vehicle when told not to.

A young man is now dead. That entire lifeline of possible marriage, children, their children etc., has been snuffed out because this vile little scumbag was determined to do just what he wanted to do, to the detriment of the advice he received.

What has gone down for 45 pages to justify that, is bloody sickening. Even damned excuse has been thrown into the mix to make it Martin's fault. He did nothing wrong. Nothing.

What he has done in his life, images that show him looking not so cute as opposed to the ones where he looks so innocent, Obama's 'selectiveness', the safety catch, angle of the shot, two vile filthy virulent scum who shot a baby, a ring leader of another crime being British....

Any damn thing to muddy the waters; to ensure that Zimmerman not so much looks a hero, but that the act of this piece of garbage is justified.

There is not one damn thing that justifies it; not a damn thing. Yet the pernicious excuses have spewed forth like vomit.

My analogy is something that tripped me up...at school! The 8am train leaves Euston with 200 passengers and stops there- picks up 4 passengers, 7 alight/stops there- 2 alight, 4 get on/ travels there-16 off -29 get on/stop there 30 off-11 on..etc. What time did it leave Euston?

All utter extraneous crap to mask something very simple.

Stop making excuses. If you enablers want to concentrate on something, keep shoving the issue that this human stain was acquitted by a jury.
That is true. That is disgusting.
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Old Jul 22nd 2013, 2:39 pm
  #665  
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Default Re: Zimmerman Verdict

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Yup. The short skirt argument lives. "She shouldn't have been there alone at night. She should have ignored him. She shouldn't have aggravated him. She should have run away."
You're now introducing a hypothetical rape with something totally different just to try and win an argument. Pointless. If you think Martin should have stood there and fought Zimmerman for gettng out of his car, or following him, then just say so.

Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
And I think it's laughable that some here are saying that Martin should have just run away. I think that particular sentiment, in a nutshell, shows how completely clueless and out of touch some are on this issue. Unless you've been living under a rock, everybody knows what happens to black men who run.
Okay, so if not run then, walk.
The chances would have been 50/50 for him had he tried. As it was, his (alleged) actions turned his chances into slim to none. Zimmerman (allegedly) did not have the gun unholstered at the point the confrontation took place.
Are you actually suggesting that any black man that runs away gets shot in the back, because I certainly don't know that and I'm not living under a rock.

The suggestion that something worse could have happened to Martin had he
walked away from that situation, baffles me.

The relevant point that's being made by some people here (without all the conjecture and hypothetical scenarios), is that like it or not, they both had the same option to walk away from a potential fight. Neither of them did.
Zimmerman as an adult could and should, have shown better judgement than to get into it.
It's not an arguable point that Trayvon Martin did not have the choice to walk away from the situation, just as Zimmerman did.
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Old Jul 22nd 2013, 2:43 pm
  #666  
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Default Re: Zimmerman Verdict

Originally Posted by TheEmperorIsNaked View Post
You shock me.


I match your retired rank in my own Force in my own country, but it shames me that anyone who should know better can come up with this kind of rationale.

It seems to me that this is the logic to avoid any culpability, any accountability; any responsibility.
This was what you were trained for? God help us all.

I don't care whether Trayvon Martin was a midget, or the green hulk. I care little whether he smoked pot; dealt pot or snorted shards of glass. On that day nothing NOTHING is more relevant than that a trigger happy little swine got out of his vehicle when told not to.

A young man is now dead. That entire lifeline of possible marriage, children, their children etc., has been snuffed out because this vile little scumbag was determined to do just what he wanted to do, to the detriment of the advice he received.

What has gone down for 45 pages to justify that, is bloody sickening. Even damned excuse has been thrown into the mix to make it Martin's fault. He did nothing wrong. Nothing.

What he has done in his life, images that show him looking not so cute as opposed to the ones where he looks so innocent, Obama's 'selectiveness', the safety catch, angle of the shot, two vile filthy virulent scum who shot a baby, a ring leader of another crime being British....

Any damn thing to muddy the waters; to ensure that Zimmerman not so much looks a hero, but that the act of this piece of garbage is justified.

There is not one damn thing that justifies it; not a damn thing. Yet the pernicious excuses have spewed forth like vomit.

My analogy is something that tripped me up...at school! The 8am train leaves Euston with 200 passengers and stops there- picks up 4 passengers, 7 alight/stops there- 2 alight, 4 get on/ travels there-16 off -29 get on/stop there 30 off-11 on..etc. What time did it leave Euston?

All utter extraneous crap to mask something very simple.

Stop making excuses. If you enablers want to concentrate on something, keep shoving the issue that this human stain was acquitted by a jury.
That is true. That is disgusting.
There's nothing quite like a completely unemotional, objective and unbiased post to get things rolling on a Monday morning.
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Old Jul 22nd 2013, 2:51 pm
  #667  
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Default Re: Zimmerman Verdict

Originally Posted by paranoidandroid View Post
There's nothing quite like a completely unemotional, objective and unbiased post to get things rolling on a Monday morning.
Damn right. There's nothing like it.
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Old Jul 22nd 2013, 2:51 pm
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Default Re: Zimmerman Verdict

Originally Posted by paranoidandroid View Post
You're now introducing a hypothetical rape with something totally different just to try and win an argument. Pointless. If you think Martin should have stood there and fought Zimmerman for gettng out of his car, or following him, then just say so.

Do you really not understand what an analogy is?

I think I'll just go back to work. Less irritating.
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Old Jul 22nd 2013, 2:53 pm
  #669  
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Default Re: Zimmerman Verdict

Originally Posted by paranoidandroid View Post
There's nothing quite like a completely unemotional, objective and unbiased post to get things rolling on a Monday morning.
And that is, indeed, nothing like a completely unemotional, .....
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Old Jul 22nd 2013, 2:59 pm
  #670  
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Default Re: Zimmerman Verdict

Important point being missed here. Others may have eluded as such but of the current batch being addressed by a few posts here, Pulaski and paranoidandroid and subsequently myself, have not said that Martin's actions or decision making justified the shooting at all. It simply, and unfortunately, made it legal.

That is all. There are other issues that go above and beyond this case but as I think about the specifics, and my own quickness to jump on the outrage bus I realise that while I don't agree that it was in any way right for Zimmerman to shoot and kill Martin - I also think that those on whose side I still largely lean sometimes tend to get carried away when they see a post that appears that it even slightly hints that Martin made a mistake. He did. They both did. Of the very few facts that we can gather from this case, that is one of them.

Does that make it any less sad that he's dead? No. It doesn't make it right that he was shot either. Just because someone muses that he might have been better off running or walking away doesn't mean that person has suggested that he was asking for it, either. One can lose a lot of credibility in their argument if they jump on a point right away without considering the intent behind it (which, in many cases is reasonably apparent).

None of this changes my position - I still think the case wasn't taken as seriously as it could have been but even if it had been, Zimmerman might still have been found not guilty. Such is the law that was applied here. It still doesn't mean people can't talk about it, that it can't be kept in the public eye to go some way towards stopping it happening again, as long as we all keep our heads straight.
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Old Jul 22nd 2013, 3:00 pm
  #671  
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Default Re: Zimmerman Verdict

Originally Posted by paranoidandroid View Post

Okay, so if not run then, walk.
The chances would have been 50/50 for him had he tried. As it was, his (alleged) actions turned his chances into slim to none. Zimmerman (allegedly) did not have the gun unholstered at the point the confrontation took place.
Are you actually suggesting that any black man that runs away gets shot in the back, because I certainly don't know that and I'm not living under a rock.
The suggestion that something worse could have happened to Martin had he
walked away from that situation, baffles me.

The relevant point that's being made by some people here (without all the conjecture and hypothetical scenarios), is that like it or not, they both had the same option to walk away from a potential fight. Neither of them did.
Zimmerman as an adult could and should, have shown better judgement than to get into it.
It's not an arguable point that Trayvon Martin did not have the choice to walk away from the situation, just as Zimmerman did.
I'm not suggesting that at all. I don't think Martin knew he was going to get killed, therefore he did not run --- if he'd have known this person was going to shoot him, then of course he would have/should have run. But he didn't know, how could he have known?

FWIW, black men running at night (or at any other time for that matter) are perceived as guilty of something and tend to go to jail. They are taught from a very young age not to run in public because people will assume you've done something wrong and bad things can happen. Taking into account that Martin had no way of knowing that Zimmerman was going to shoot him, his (Martin's) conditioning and survival instincts would have told him that running was a bad idea. It's really that simple.

Also, he DID try to walk home, walk away, etc. but Zimmerman wasn't having any of it. He was "walking away" when Zimmerman lost sight of him, got out of his car, and tracked him down.
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Old Jul 22nd 2013, 3:06 pm
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Default Re: Zimmerman Verdict

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Do you really not understand what an analogy is?

I think I'll just go back to work. Less irritating.
I do, but yours isn't making sense. You're suggesting something that you have absolutely no way of proving.
What part of "they both had a choice to walk away", are you failing to understand? What part of that irritates you so much? The bit that's true?
Go back to work, and I'll do the same instead, of getting involved in this nonsense all over again.
Honestly, it's like beating one's head off a brick wall.
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Old Jul 22nd 2013, 3:22 pm
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Default Re: Zimmerman Verdict

Originally Posted by Leslie View Post
I'm not suggesting that at all. I don't think Martin knew he was going to get killed, therefore he did not run --- if he'd have known this person was going to shoot him, then of course he would have/should have run. But he didn't know, how could he have known?

FWIW, black men running at night (or at any other time for that matter) are perceived as guilty of something and tend to go to jail. They are taught from a very young age not to run in public because people will assume you've done something wrong and bad things can happen. Taking into account that Martin had no way of knowing that Zimmerman was going to shoot him, his (Martin's) conditioning and survival instincts would have told him that running was a bad idea. It's really that simple.

Also, he DID try to walk home, walk away, etc. but Zimmerman wasn't having any of it. He was "walking away" when Zimmerman lost sight of him, got out of his car, and tracked him down.
You're trying to twist it around to make the situation different.
The way you've worded it sounds like you're suggesting that Martin confronted Zimmerman based on the hope that he didn't have a gun. That wouldn't be a very wise idea in Florida where there are so many people with CCW permits.

Anyway, my point is, that if we are to accept the account of events according to Zimmerman, the choice they had to walk away came when Zimmerman and Martin exchanged words, ie the initial confrontation/when Martin attacked Zimmerman, or whatever happened. I'm not talking of before that, because it's irrelevant to the events that took place. He was 70 yards away from his Dad's house when he was shot.
The point where the confrontation took place was where they both had the choice to walk away, and they both chose not to, in fact if you believe what Zimmerman says, he didn't have a chance to walk because he was punched.
The shooting wasn't justified because of a bloody nose, but the situation could have developed differently than it did had either of them made alternative choices not to get physical.
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Old Jul 22nd 2013, 3:25 pm
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Default Re: Zimmerman Verdict

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing View Post
Important point being missed here. Others may have eluded as such but of the current batch being addressed by a few posts here, Pulaski and paranoidandroid and subsequently myself, have not said that Martin's actions or decision making justified the shooting at all. It simply, and unfortunately, made it legal.

That is all. There are other issues that go above and beyond this case but as I think about the specifics, and my own quickness to jump on the outrage bus I realise that while I don't agree that it was in any way right for Zimmerman to shoot and kill Martin - I also think that those on whose side I still largely lean sometimes tend to get carried away when they see a post that appears that it even slightly hints that Martin made a mistake. He did. They both did. Of the very few facts that we can gather from this case, that is one of them.

Does that make it any less sad that he's dead? No. It doesn't make it right that he was shot either. Just because someone muses that he might have been better off running or walking away doesn't mean that person has suggested that he was asking for it, either. One can lose a lot of credibility in their argument if they jump on a point right away without considering the intent behind it (which, in many cases is reasonably apparent).

None of this changes my position - I still think the case wasn't taken as seriously as it could have been but even if it had been, Zimmerman might still have been found not guilty. Such is the law that was applied here. It still doesn't mean people can't talk about it, that it can't be kept in the public eye to go some way towards stopping it happening again, as long as we all keep our heads straight.
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Old Jul 22nd 2013, 3:29 pm
  #675  
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Default Re: Zimmerman Verdict

Originally Posted by paranoidandroid View Post
You're trying to twist it around to make the situation different.
The way you've worded it sounds like you're suggesting that Martin confronted Zimmerman based on the hope that he didn't have a gun. That wouldn't be a very wise idea in Florida where there are so many people with CCW permits.
What?!?!? I have no idea how you got any of that out of what I said.

I don't believe Martin confronted anybody. The facts that we do have (despite all of the attempts to paint it as otherwise) suggest that Martin was the one who was followed and confronted. What I'm saying is that it would have been counterintuitive for him to "run" because it would have made him look guilty. Of course, if Martin knew Zimmerman had a gun and was going to shoot him, it would have made perfect sense for Martin to run --- but only under that circumstance.
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