Go Back  British Expats > General > Take it Outside!
Reload this Page >

WTF Murders/Killings in the US

WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Old Jun 5th 2019, 2:04 pm
  #2056  
Stand-up Philosopher
 
caretaker's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Regina and Oliver
Posts: 10,786
caretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

The news this morning is devoting quite a bit of time to Scott Peterson, the deputy and school resource officer at Stoneman Douglas High School who didn't go in and confront Nicholas Cruz while he killed 17 students and staff (19 if you count the 2 who committed suicide later). Arrested yesterday, he's facing a possible lifetime in prison for not seeking out the shooter, (who had Peterson seriously out-gunned). His reticence at sacrificing himself, (cowardice, in some of the statements by law enforcement and parents) is the focus, but I didn't see anything about the tips the police and FBI had been getting for 2 years about Cruz, or how he was able to obtain the AR-15 and magazines legally even though he'd been raising red flags and threatening to carry out a school shooting online. Deputy Peterson could hear the volume of fire coming from within the school, and decided not to go in and face it, but was that cowardice or common sense? The paragraph in the wikipedia article on the Stoneman Douglas High shooting that deals with Cruz's psychiatric history leads me to blame the system that either ignored multiple warnings or passed the buck on dealing with him, more than the deputy who didn't want to get in a firefight with someone armed for the battlefield.
caretaker is offline  
Old Jun 5th 2019, 2:07 pm
  #2057  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Boiler's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 31,421
Boiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by caretaker View Post
The news this morning is devoting quite a bit of time to Scott Peterson, the deputy and school resource officer at Stoneman Douglas High School who didn't go in and confront Nicholas Cruz while he killed 17 students and staff (19 if you count the 2 who committed suicide later). Arrested yesterday, he's facing a possible lifetime in prison for not seeking out the shooter, (who had Peterson seriously out-gunned). His reticence at sacrificing himself, (cowardice, in some of the statements by law enforcement and parents) is the focus, but I didn't see anything about the tips the police and FBI had been getting for 2 years about Cruz, or how he was able to obtain the AR-15 and magazines legally even though he'd been raising red flags and threatening to carry out a school shooting online. Deputy Peterson could hear the volume of fire coming from within the school, and decided not to go in and face it, but was that cowardice or common sense? The paragraph in the wikipedia article on the Stoneman Douglas High shooting that deals with Cruz's psychiatric history leads me to blame the system that either ignored multiple warnings or passed the buck on dealing with him, more than the deputy who didn't want to get in a firefight with someone armed for the battlefield.
Similar to the Colorado incident where activists tried to deflect and the Students walked out, they were chanting Mental Health.
Boiler is offline  
Old Jun 5th 2019, 3:49 pm
  #2058  
Stand-up Philosopher
 
caretaker's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Regina and Oliver
Posts: 10,786
caretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond reputecaretaker has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by Boiler View Post
Similar to the Colorado incident where activists tried to deflect and the Students walked out, they were chanting Mental Health.
Not at all. The students of Stoneman Douglas are advocating for gun control to get weapons like the one used to murder their classmates off the market, and instead of taking them seriously the state has charged the lone guard with failing to protect them, even though he would have faced far superior firepower and probably been killed. I was just drawing attention to the failure of the law enforcement community to prevent a kid who was an obvious known risk from getting an assault rifle in the first place. Florida raised the minimum age for firearms purchase and banned bump stocks, but wouldn't do anything about the sale of assault rifles and large capacity magazines, which is what the survivors are after.
caretaker is offline  
Old Jun 5th 2019, 3:57 pm
  #2059  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Boiler's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 31,421
Boiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by caretaker View Post
Not at all. The students of Stoneman Douglas are advocating for gun control to get weapons like the one used to murder their classmates off the market, and instead of taking them seriously the state has charged the lone guard with failing to protect them, even though he would have faced far superior firepower and probably been killed. I was just drawing attention to the failure of the law enforcement community to prevent a kid who was an obvious known risk from getting an assault rifle in the first place. Florida raised the minimum age for firearms purchase and banned bump stocks, but wouldn't do anything about the sale of assault rifles and large capacity magazines, which is what the survivors are after.
In both cases the issue was a known one, in both cases everybody seemed to have know the fuse had been lit and something was going to happen and the situation had been ignored.
Boiler is offline  
Old Jun 5th 2019, 6:19 pm
  #2060  
BE Forum Addict
 
macliam's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Suffolk,UK; Alentejo, Portugal
Posts: 3,819
macliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by Boiler View Post
In both cases the issue was a known one, in both cases everybody seemed to have know the fuse had been lit and something was going to happen and the situation had been ignored.
Oddly, that was the same in the Dunblane massacre in the UK, which finally set the seal on the gun control now in place - although the earlier Hungerford massacre was not as clear cut. There have been a few comments in the thread regarding knowledge/experience of firearms in the UK and whilst gun ownership was never as embedded in the UK as it is in the USA, personal ownership of large calibre semi-automatic weapons was possible prior to 1987. The change in availability and attitude towards these weapons over a relatively short period of time is worth considering.

In 1987 Michael Ryan went on the rampage in Hungerford with a Chinese Type 56 semi-automatic rifle, an M1 carbine and a Beretta 92FS2 pistol - all legally held. He killed 16 and injured another 15 before shooting himself. The outcome was that semi-automatic rifles and shotguns with a capacity of more than 3 cartridges were restricted. At the time, Ryan was 5 years younger than me - and my father had to surrender his semi-auto suppressed .22 survival gun and 5-shot Remington shotgun, both of which became illegal "overnight".

However, 9 years later, Thomas Hamilton, 2 years older than me, was still able to carry two legally-owned 9mm Browning HPs, two S&W .357 Magnum revolvers and 743 rounds of ammo as he killed 17 mostly little kids and injured 15 others. After this, changes to the law in 1987 restricted personal ownership of all modern handguns and my father lost his Artillery Luger, Sauer 32mm and a few other pistols....

So, as a result of 2 massacres and over a period of only 10 years, personal ownership of almost all firearms was made impractical in the UK. Things can change........ and there haven't been any such massacres since, apart from the case of Derek Bird in 2010, who used a shotgun and a .22 rifle to kill 12 people. No weapon is "safe"....

Last edited by macliam; Jun 5th 2019 at 6:26 pm.
macliam is online now  
Old Jun 5th 2019, 6:24 pm
  #2061  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Boiler's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 31,421
Boiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond reputeBoiler has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Oddly, that was the same in the Dunblane massacre in the UK, which finally set the seal on the gun control now in place - although the earlier Hungerford massacre was not as clear cut. There have been a few comments in the thread regarding knowledge/experience of firearms in the UK and whilst gun ownership was never as embedded in the UK as it is in the USA, personal ownership of large calibre semi-automatic weapons was possible prior to 1987. The change in availability and attitude towards these weapons over a relatively short period of time is worth considering.

In 1987 Michael Ryan went on the rampage in Hungerford with a Chinese Type 56 semi-automatic rifle, an M1 carbine and a Beretta 92FS2 pistol - all legally held. He killed 16 and injured another 15 before shooting himself. The outcome was that semi-automatic rifles and shotguns with a capacity of more than 3 cartridges were restricted. At the time, Ryan was 5 years younger than me - and my father had to surrender his semi-auto suppressed .22 survival gun and 5-shot Remington shotgun, both of which became illegal "overnight".

However, 9 years later, Thomas Hamilton, 2 years older than me, was still able to carry two legally-owned 9mm Browning HPs, two S&W .357 Magnum revolvers and 743 rounds of ammo as he killed 17 mostly little kids and injured 15 others. After this, changes to the law in 1987 restricted personal ownership of all modern handguns and my father lost his Artillery Luger, Sauer 32mm and a few other pistols....

So, as a result of 2 massacres and over a period of only 10 years, personal ownership of almost all firearms was made impractical in the UK. Things can change........ and there haven't been any such massacres since.
Manchester

London Bridge

I could go on.

Seems a knifing in the news every say.
Boiler is offline  
Old Jun 5th 2019, 10:09 pm
  #2062  
BE Forum Addict
 
macliam's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Suffolk,UK; Alentejo, Portugal
Posts: 3,819
macliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by Boiler View Post
Manchester

London Bridge

I could go on.

Seems a knifing in the news every say.
Please do go on......such comparisons are ludicrous. If you're equating terrorism with the continuous lunacy in the USA, perhaps it's worth considering that between 2000 and 2017 there were less people killed by terrorism in the UK than McVeigh killed in the Oklahoma city attack..... and in the 30 years before that, even with a major conflict in Ireland, the numbers paled into insignificance when compared to a single years fatalities from shootings in the USA. Gun crime is a self-inflicted wound.

The use of knives among young people is undoubtedly an issue....... but the vast majority of such crime is contained within that sector. Show me how it has become a general issue....... show me how many schools have been invaded by knife-wielding killers or the incidence of knife usage in crime outside that sector. The UK has such a low level of violent crime that every killing is reported - even though the overall number runs on a par with a single US city.
macliam is online now  
Old Jun 5th 2019, 10:31 pm
  #2063  
Fair and balanced
 
kimilseung's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 13,705
kimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Please do go on......such comparisons are ludicrous. If you're equating terrorism with the continuous lunacy in the USA, perhaps it's worth considering that between 2000 and 2017 there were less people killed by terrorism in the UK than McVeigh killed in the Oklahoma city attack..... and in the 30 years before that, even with a major conflict in Ireland, the numbers paled into insignificance when compared to a single years fatalities from shootings in the USA. Gun crime is a self-inflicted wound.

The use of knives among young people is undoubtedly an issue....... but the vast majority of such crime is contained within that sector. Show me how it has become a general issue....... show me how many schools have been invaded by knife-wielding killers or the incidence of knife usage in crime outside that sector. The UK has such a low level of violent crime that every killing is reported - even though the overall number runs on a par with a single US city.
Knife crime in the UK is London skewed, I have no idea why,
kimilseung is online now  
Old Jun 5th 2019, 10:56 pm
  #2064  
BE Forum Addict
 
macliam's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Suffolk,UK; Alentejo, Portugal
Posts: 3,819
macliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
Knife crime in the UK is London skewed, I have no idea why,
Greater London is big...... in population it equates to the next six metropolitan areas combined (Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds-Bradford, Liverpool, Glasgow, Nottingham-Derby) - so the likelihood of issues is that much greater.

Glasgow has done a lot to tackle its knife-crime problem, so now the others need to catch up...... but the drivers may be different.
macliam is online now  
Old Jun 5th 2019, 11:45 pm
  #2065  
Fair and balanced
 
kimilseung's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 13,705
kimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Greater London is big...... in population it equates to the next six metropolitan areas combined (Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds-Bradford, Liverpool, Glasgow, Nottingham-Derby) - so the likelihood of issues is that much greater.

Glasgow has done a lot to tackle its knife-crime problem, so now the others need to catch up...... but the drivers may be different.
If you will forgive me for being slightly insulted that I may be ignorant of London being a little bit big. Skewed in a higher rate per 100k of population kind of skewing.
kimilseung is online now  
Old Jun 5th 2019, 11:47 pm
  #2066  
Fair and balanced
 
kimilseung's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: WA
Posts: 13,705
kimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond reputekimilseung has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Knife offences per 100,000 people by region, England and Wales, year ending March 2018 (Home Office via BBC)
kimilseung is online now  
Old Jun 6th 2019, 12:35 am
  #2067  
BE Forum Addict
 
macliam's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Suffolk,UK; Alentejo, Portugal
Posts: 3,819
macliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
Knife offences per 100,000 people by region, England and Wales, year ending March 2018 (Home Office via BBC)
No intent to insult...... on that breakdown it does seem London-centric, but if you look at the BBC map for 2019 it looks less so....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48186035. That report also shows that whilst the re is a skew towards the youth, stabbing is, unfortunately, not that uncommon as a cause of unnatural death in the UK. Nor is the rise in deaths by stabbing that extreme or sudden

macliam is online now  
Old Jun 6th 2019, 3:29 am
  #2068  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,490
anotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by caretaker View Post
The news this morning is devoting quite a bit of time to Scott Peterson, the deputy and school resource officer at Stoneman Douglas High School who didn't go in and confront Nicholas Cruz while he killed 17 students and staff (19 if you count the 2 who committed suicide later). Arrested yesterday, he's facing a possible lifetime in prison for not seeking out the shooter, (who had Peterson seriously out-gunned). His reticence at sacrificing himself, (cowardice, in some of the statements by law enforcement and parents) is the focus, but I didn't see anything about the tips the police and FBI had been getting for 2 years about Cruz, or how he was able to obtain the AR-15 and magazines legally even though he'd been raising red flags and threatening to carry out a school shooting online. Deputy Peterson could hear the volume of fire coming from within the school, and decided not to go in and face it, but was that cowardice or common sense? The paragraph in the wikipedia article on the Stoneman Douglas High shooting that deals with Cruz's psychiatric history leads me to blame the system that either ignored multiple warnings or passed the buck on dealing with him, more than the deputy who didn't want to get in a firefight with someone armed for the battlefield.
Being that I'm in FL and have two young children in schools... there should be defense in depth. Yes the red flags should have prevented Cruz obtaining the guns, yes the FBI or police should have interviewed him more, but also Peterson should have done the job he's paid and trained for - he's the last line in that defense.

The FBI recommendation is to confront the shooter regardless of the weapon you have. Peterson was a coward.
anotherlimey is offline  
Old Jun 6th 2019, 5:52 am
  #2069  
SUPER MODERATOR
 
moneypenny20's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 63,717
moneypenny20 has a reputation beyond reputemoneypenny20 has a reputation beyond reputemoneypenny20 has a reputation beyond reputemoneypenny20 has a reputation beyond reputemoneypenny20 has a reputation beyond reputemoneypenny20 has a reputation beyond reputemoneypenny20 has a reputation beyond reputemoneypenny20 has a reputation beyond reputemoneypenny20 has a reputation beyond reputemoneypenny20 has a reputation beyond reputemoneypenny20 has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by kimilseung View Post
If you will forgive me for being slightly insulted that I may be ignorant of London being a little bit big. Skewed in a higher rate per 100k of population kind of skewing.
Originally Posted by anotherlimey View Post
Being that I'm in FL and have two young children in schools... there should be defense in depth. Yes the red flags should have prevented Cruz obtaining the guns, yes the FBI or police should have interviewed him more, but also Peterson should have done the job he's paid and trained for - he's the last line in that defense.

The FBI recommendation is to confront the shooter regardless of the weapon you have. Peterson was a coward.
Personal opinion only but better a living 'coward' (disagree with that label entirely) than a dead 'hero' (not a fan of that one either). Wasn't there but if someone with a gun determines that psycho with much bigger gun/s is shooting the **** out of people and works out (from on the ground knowledge) that his chances of taking out said psycho whilst not taking out more kids is very very small, I'd go with being a 'coward' as well. But what do I know.
moneypenny20 is offline  
Old Jun 6th 2019, 11:07 am
  #2070  
Lost in BE Cyberspace
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,490
anotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond reputeanotherlimey has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: WTF Murders/Killings in the US

Originally Posted by moneypenny20 View Post
Personal opinion only but better a living 'coward' (disagree with that label entirely) than a dead 'hero' (not a fan of that one either). Wasn't there but if someone with a gun determines that psycho with much bigger gun/s is shooting the **** out of people and works out (from on the ground knowledge) that his chances of taking out said psycho whilst not taking out more kids is very very small, I'd go with being a 'coward' as well. But what do I know.
FIrstly, he didn't know what gun was being used.

Secondly the other option is to continue letting someone execute children. Even if you're just a distraction for 30 seconds that's better than more dead kids, and their training acknowledges that.

anotherlimey is offline  

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.