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Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Old Nov 5th 2019, 5:05 pm
  #91  
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by Bipat View Post
Off topic----- but some Empire countries were civilised when the British were still in caves! You can have no idea how they would have developed if not 'taken over' by British for economic gain. Governments were already in place---railways were for the British own use, would have developed, as already scientific advances been made.

Ireland developed over last 20-30 years???? The wealth of literature, arts, music etc etc, from 1800s. Four Nobel literature laureates.
Oh come on, the vast majority of "countries" taken over by the Brits were not even countries at the time, it was the Brits that fashioned them into political entities.
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Old Nov 5th 2019, 5:23 pm
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Thank you for this classic example of imperial condescension and sour-grapes - sadly, you are not alone, see HERE. I'm sure you also think I should be tugging my forelock out of respect for your insight, but I'll have to disappoint you.

As usual, you trot out the suggestion that the beneficent colonists built infrastructure to improve life in the colonies..... whereas such infrastructure was rarely built for the benefit of the native population. Railways were built primarily to carry freight (and/or troops), not native travellers, as were the roads. These were tools necessary for the governance of the colony and the extraction of its wealth.
I made no suggestion whatsoever that infrastructure was built to improve the life in the colonies.

You can tug your forelock if you like.

Perhaps you are not aware that Ireland had its own parliament for the whole of the island until it was forced into the Union. Perhaps you are unaware of the scholars and writers who came from that "backward little place". Or perhaps you just choose to ignore things that don't fit your argument.
When I said backward I was pointing out the Catholic-dominated Ireland of the more recent 60's, 70's, 80's etc - sending girls for abortion in the UK, hating on the gays whilst buggering young boys.

Your sour grapes about the aid given to Ireland through the EU is telling, though your timescale is shite. Whereas Ireland has indeed been a net recipient of EU funds, this was to offset the poor state of the economy on accession and to build the required infrastructure for growth (whoops, surely not after you left us soooo much!)
You'd had 50+ years to continue developing on the roads and rail given to you by the British.

You ignore the success of successive Irish governments in attracting private capital from the likes of Bosch, Siemens, Philips, etc. to help establish new colleges and universities - and the impact of their graduates on European commerce (quelle surprise). Your further sour grapes about the success of Ireland in attracting foreign investment by creating a business-friendly environment also begs the question why the UK didn't do the same..... obviously the EU wasn't stopping you, so what's the new excuse? You also ignore the success of the Irish government in attracting foreign companies to base themselves in Ireland for reasons other than the purely financial - i.e. a relatively young, well-educated, English-speaking workforce in a green-field area, free of the paranoia and begrudgery of similar sites in Britain. NO, it was all done for us, wasn't it - poor Paddy, helped out of the muck by strangers? But that's OK, we're used to you underestimating us ..... and we've used it to our advantage - so I'm a little concerned that you now view Ireland as a progressive, developed country.
Acting as a tax-haven to steal companies from your friends in Europe is little to be proud of. It's nice you see Britain as full of paranoia and begrudgery - scratch a Celt and the bigotry and hate soon flows out.

Your comments regarding immigration and the Catholic church play to other areas I choose to ignore, you score no points there.
I wasn't trying to score points, I was complimenting Ireland.

Ireland has indeed built on its opportunities over the past decades - and again, this was built on foundations laid after Independence. It took almost two decades to formulate the constitution, but it has given us the tools to progress by referendum, rather than seeing a meltdown as in the UK. I am inordinately proud of (and a little surprised by) the position that Ireland has now achieved, from our voting system, to the makeup of the government and the civilized position of the President. You should also feel some pride that much is based on it's commonality with the UK - the use of common law, the overall structure of the political system, even our armed forces (although in each we have had the opportunity to improve the model we inherited). Were you to forget your constant striving for one-upmanship (something I'm sure Freud might have had thoughts about) you'd notice that we actually share many things in common...... but "in common" doesn't mean subservient, which is something England needs to think about when it comes to treatment of the other home nations.
It certainly does seem that the Irish are happier than the British to be told to vote again by their bosses in the EU when they get it wrong. As I've already said, I am impressed how well Ireland has done over the past thirty years from a backward poor country to a well-developed and well-balanced place. But this sort of free UK/German cash and offshore tax haven economy would not be realistic for a country like the UK within the EU. The home nations do very well out of England, typically getting far more cash and having far more political clout than their size would indicate, although we'll see no thanks from the celtic fringe, just an unending whinge.
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Old Nov 5th 2019, 5:33 pm
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Please don't attempt to equate the situation in Scotland with that of Ireland. Scotland entered the union willingly and has derived far more benefit than Ireland ever did. Whilst I deny no nation the desire for independence, it is, as I said before, a hard road with a high cost. For that reason, I do not see the Scots as truly desirous of independence, as it became apparent at the time of Indyref that they have no stomach for the cost and discomfort that it might cause. The same was largely true of Ireland, prior to 1916, but all that changed due to the attitude of the British authorities. If you want a lesson from history, it could be argued that Ireland was more lost by the British than won by the nationalists.......
There are no excuses to be made, the great famine was not the first and it was exploited to further the goals of the ruling class (a recent film, Black '47, gives some flavour of this). As you say, there were similar experiences throughout the Empire - and, to our shame, Irish troops played their part in the "success" of colonial expansion. Just as we recall the Scots as being the tools used by the British to suppress the generational rebellions in Ireland, so the Irish regiments used by the British to garrison the colonies (with the added advantage that it kept them far from home...)
You should recognize in the six counties a similar gameplan as in the Indian subcontinent leading to partition. Divide and conquer was always a tool in the colonial armoury, and it was used to no greater effect than In ireland. After being frighted by a non-sectarian uprising by the United Irishmen in 1798, Britain enacted policies to favour protestants at the expense of catholics, thus driving a wedge into the common cause of their alliance against the British. This worked all too well resulting in the problems we see today (although they are far fewer than short decades ago). Hopefully, the blind prejudice on both sides is diminishing, though it will take a long time to disappear. At least now there are more kids playing together irrespective of their tradition - as Bobby Sands said "Our revenge will be the laughter of our children" and my overarching hope is that this comes true.

Words to live by but it will mean the decline in influence of both the Catholic and Presbyterian churches to reach that happy stage.

Last edited by BEVS; Nov 6th 2019 at 5:04 am. Reason: Bluddy quotes
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Old Nov 5th 2019, 6:44 pm
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
When I said backward I was pointing out the Catholic-dominated Ireland of the more recent 60's, 70's, 80's etc - sending girls for abortion in the UK, hating on the gays whilst buggering young boys.
Please spare me your anti-Catholic spleen. it happened, it was a crime - but it also happened elsewhere and by others. Whilst I do not defend the Catholic church in Ireland for any crimes, it was an extension of the power they had over people's everyday lives..... a power they no longer have. As an organization, I feared the church before I left, due to this power - but on an individual basis, I saw nothing of the evils you describe despite all my schooling being in the hands of Nuns or Christian Brothers. The benefit of hindsight is 20:20 vision......
Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
You'd had 50+ years to continue developing on the roads and rail given to you by the British.
50 years of a wrecked economy - do keep up. OH, and if you "gave" us the railways, perhaps we should ask you to give back British infrastructure to the thousands of Irish "navigators" who built it for you.
Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
Acting as a tax-haven to steal companies from your friends in Europe is little to be proud of. It's nice you see Britain as full of paranoia and begrudgery - scratch a Celt and the bigotry and hate soon flows out.
You'd be the master in bigotry and hate, it seems..... you seem terribly bitter about Ireland's ability to attract foreign companies. Doubtless you'll feel worse about those transferring out of the UK due to current self-inflicted uncertainty. What Ireland does is within the rules...... but of course, you probably only like rules that favour you, eh? .........As for scratching a Celt, I'd not try it if I were you......... we've learned to bite back.
Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
I wasn't trying to score points, I was complimenting Ireland.
Unfortunately, it didn't read that way..... I wonder why?
Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
It certainly does seem that the Irish are happier than the British to be told to vote again by their bosses in the EU when they get it wrong. As I've already said, I am impressed how well Ireland has done over the past thirty years from a backward poor country to a well-developed and well-balanced place. But this sort of free UK/German cash and offshore tax haven economy would not be realistic for a country like the UK within the EU. The home nations do very well out of England, typically getting far more cash and having far more political clout than their size would indicate, although we'll see no thanks from the celtic fringe, just an unending whinge.
I'd go back and check your facts if I were you. The one referendum rejected and then re-run, was rejected due to concerns regarding Ireland's independence and neutrality. These concerns were addressed and the referendum rerun on that basis - in exactly the same way that bills are amended and reconsidered in Westminster. Of course, the reason for that is because Ireland has more experience of referendums.... and theirs are actually binding. I'd also query your "free cash" assertion, because once Ireland's economy passes the tipping point, she too will become a net contributor and provide aid via the EU to worse off neighbours..... that's the point of the club. As for your repeated suggestion that Ireland is an offshore tax haven.... those grapes must really taste sour! If this were the case, Ireland would be under far greater pressure to change than it is..... or do you think that it is especially favoured by the EU?

I was actually trying to be helpful in suggesting the English might do well to consider the situation in the UK, but your comment suggests that you think you have the right to do as you wish and ignore the others...... and that your money buys you that right. You don't and it doesn't - so I'd expect a lot more than whinging in the near future unless you get attitude adjustment surgery.
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Old Nov 5th 2019, 6:57 pm
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by dc koop View Post
... Bobby Sands said "Our revenge will be the laughter of our children" and my overarching hope is that this comes true.

Words to live by but it will mean the decline in influence of both the Catholic and Presbyterian churches to reach that happy stage.
Please don't confuse Catholic and Presbyterian (or Protestant) for nationalist and unionist - the latter are the two tribes in the north, the former are just lazy generalizations. Not all Catholics are nationalist and not all Protestants are unionists (not even all Presbyterians). These divisions are becoming more blurred over time. As the Presbyterians in the north have no church hierarchy and I have never heard the Catholic hierarchy call for division, I presume by "church", you are referring to the membership - and it will take time to overcome centuries of learned bigotry, but every journey starts with the first step and a reduction in segregated education and barricaded ghettoes has to be encouraged.

There is a generation in the north who have never known conflict ...... the gunmen are mere shadows. But as Gerry Adams said "They haven't gone away, you know." - in the past, conflict has skipped a generation but returned - I pray it does't do the same now and removing the artificial barriers to inclusive living is the best way of achieving that.

Last edited by BEVS; Nov 6th 2019 at 5:07 am. Reason: argh quotes
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Old Nov 6th 2019, 4:59 am
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by Cape Blue View Post
Oh come on, the vast majority of "countries" taken over by the Brits were not even countries at the time, it was the Brits that fashioned them into political entities.
Just don't mention the Balfour declaration.
Then again, look at the UAE, the trucial states which we helped establish. We were then requested to stay but insisted we leave. Then they found oil.
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Old Nov 6th 2019, 5:05 am
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Quotes people. Quotes!
Or I shall do a JG and simple delete the posts.
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Old Nov 6th 2019, 5:28 am
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Please don't confuse Catholic and Presbyterian (or Protestant) for nationalist and unionist - the latter are the two tribes in the north, the former are just lazy generalizations. Not all Catholics are nationalist and not all Protestants are unionists (not even all Presbyterians). These divisions are becoming more blurred over time. As the Presbyterians in the north have no church hierarchy and I have never heard the Catholic hierarchy call for division, I presume by "church", you are referring to the membership - and it will take time to overcome centuries of learned bigotry, but every journey starts with the first step and a reduction in segregated education and barricaded ghettoes has to be encouraged.

There is a generation in the north who have never known conflict ...... the gunmen are mere shadows. But as Gerry Adams said "They haven't gone away, you know." - in the past, conflict has skipped a generation but returned - I pray it does't do the same now and removing the artificial barriers to inclusive living is the best way of achieving that.
Having had a couple of distant ancestors who were members of Sinn Fein and another who was a member of the Ulster Constabulary I sometimes wonder if old enmities were forgotten at Christmas and a cup of good Irish cheer passed around

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Old Nov 6th 2019, 10:07 am
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by dc koop View Post
Having had a couple of distant ancestors who were members of Sinn Fein and another who was a member of the Ulster Constabulary I sometimes wonder if old enmities were forgotten at Christmas and a cup of good Irish cheer passed around
It happens.

Back in the late '70s, as a callow youth, I worked in a bodyshop in Southampton. One day, after work, my boss suggested a drink in his local and there I was introduced to his "contacts" in the secondhand car trade. To a man they were Ulstermen, happily drinking away as they wheeled and dealed. Imagine my surprise (remember the period) when I discovered that some were Catholic and others Protestant - and when one of them admitted to me that "back home", they wouldn't even walk down the same street.........

Odd that I was surprised though, three of my cousins were active in the Irish Republican Socialist Party (whose military wing was INLA) and two of them had (allegedly) been involved in smuggling weapons, if not more. At the same time, their youngest brother was a subaltern in the Irish army, patrolling the border.... Imagine Christmas in that house!
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