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Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Old Mar 24th 2019, 4:19 pm
  #61  
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

My great grandmother lost her home to one of the protestant mobs in the early days of the troubles.
The irony was that she was a prod, just lived in the wrong street.
In those days the IRA was shorthand for I Ran Away..
I worked with someone who served in NI during that time, they captured arms from the IRA that dated back to WW2 and had been buried for decades.
They were as much of a danger to the gunman as to his target....
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Old Mar 24th 2019, 6:47 pm
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by EMR View Post
My great grandmother lost her home to one of the protestant mobs in the early days of the troubles.
The irony was that she was a prod, just lived in the wrong street.
In those days the IRA was shorthand for I Ran Away..
I worked with someone who served in NI during that time, they captured arms from the IRA that dated back to WW2 and had been buried for decades.
They were as much of a danger to the gunman as to his target....
There is no logic in a mob.
The "I Ran Away" epithet was about the "stickies", who were ousted by the Provos due to their preference for dogma over action. Not many people used it after PIRA took over.
Guns from WW2 were the modern weapons! ASUs in Belfast still had Mauser rifles and Thompson Submachinegiuns sent by Clan na Gael in the 1930s - the IRA had stolen over 1m rounds of .45 ACP from the Phoenix Park Armoury in 1939, as the ammunition was hard to get in Europe. Kalashnikovs had not yet arrived and the famous Armalite was aspirational.
AIUI, the original armoured "Pigs" used by the army had to be retrofitted, because they had face-hardened armour designed to counter high-velocity ammunition, but the low-velocity rounds used by the IRA could penetrate it.....
But I'd doubt your source regarding the danger from the weapons (more likely from the users) - IRA armourers were experts at keeping things in good nick, some Civil War weapons from the "dump arms" were dug up in the 1980s and found to be in perfect fireable condition - over 50 years after they were buried!! That's why there was such a kerfuffle about the disarmament after the troubles - people were concerned that buried weapons could be quickly put back to use.....

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Old Mar 25th 2019, 11:43 am
  #63  
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Just stumbled across this thread and haven't read it all yet.

We were discussing this yesterday, in reality the backstop should be such a piss easy topic to ignore. It's only the N.Irish who care about it and those in the North West who might get the odd intruder on a ship from Belfast.

The economy-propping South-East has bigger things to worry about.
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Old Mar 25th 2019, 1:14 pm
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
Just stumbled across this thread and haven't read it all yet.

We were discussing this yesterday, in reality the backstop should be such a piss easy topic to ignore. It's only the N.Irish who care about it and those in the North West who might get the odd intruder on a ship from Belfast.

The economy-propping South-East has bigger things to worry about.
Yesss, I'm sure some ultras would indeed see it that way - and indeed, it would continue the long term behaviour of Westminster.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "ignore", do you mean allow a hard border? Or take the backstop and treat NI differently to the rest of the UK? Or to just leave the border open, regardless.....?

The first runs all the risks of re-igniting the problems in NI - and, I would guess, seeing that extend to mainland UK within a very short time. Anyone up for that?

The second runs similar risks from the Unionist side, who have threatened campaigns in the UK before (imagine the irony, attacking Britain to insist on remaining part of it!!). In reality, it would also mean "enhanced" devolution for NI and would probably lead to calls for similar treatment for Scotland..... so endangering the Union, if that is important to you.

The last is not in the UK's hands. The EU polices its borders and one with a hostile UK would be no different - and WTO rules would insist on the application of tariffs and standards. So, apart from high-horse finger pointing, the outcome would be the same as option 1.

On the other hand, the "economy-propping South-East" could ignore all the rest and declare UDI..... apart from the fact that London voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU.

So, it's an easy question really, which option for the break-up of the UK would you prefer?

Last edited by macliam; Mar 25th 2019 at 1:18 pm.
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Old Mar 25th 2019, 1:20 pm
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Yesss, I'm sure some ultras would indeed see it that way - and indeed, it would continue the long term behaviour of Westminster.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "ignore", do you mean allow a hard border, or take the backstop and treat NI differently to the rest of the UK?

The first runs all the risks of re-igniting the problems in NI - and, I would guess, seeing that extend to mainland UK within a very short time. Anyone up for that?

The second runs similar risks from the Unionist side, who have threatened campaigns in the UK before (imagine the irony, attacking Britain to insist on remaining part of it!!). In reality, it would also mean "enhanced" devolution for NI and would probably lead to calls for similar treatment for Scotland..... so endangering the Union, if that is important to you.

On the other hand, the "economy-propping South-East" could ignore all the rest and declare UDI..... apart from the fact that London voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU.

So, it's an easy question really, which option for the break-up of the UK would you prefer?
I forgot the big sarcasm emoji thingy. I forget that when it's super-sarccy in my mind, it might not always read like that.

Someone was telling me yesterday that it just didn't matter, I laughed and pointed out it'll be chaos locally without a solution.
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Old Mar 25th 2019, 3:03 pm
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by Scamp View Post
I forgot the big sarcasm emoji thingy. I forget that when it's super-sarccy in my mind, it might not always read like that.

Someone was telling me yesterday that it just didn't matter, I laughed and pointed out it'll be chaos locally without a solution.
That's OK, you can be sure some people think one of the options above is a good idea.........

Of course, me being "celtic fringe", some posters would think it odd that I give a damn - but apart from potential issues "at home", I'd rather not see further chaos due to a lack of foresight!
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Old Oct 23rd 2019, 5:21 pm
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Given recent events in NI, I'm surprised that nobody has revisited this....

Recent events must all seem like the stuff of nightmares for the DUP.

Last week they were threatening Dublin with "consequences" for insisting on a workable strategy for the border post-Brexit, safe in belief that Boris was backing them up.

Then Boris kicked them into the long grass by removing their veto over Brexit border arrangements in his proposals and reintroducing the concept of a border in the Irish Sea.

Now, their last-ditch attempt to prevent changes to the abortion law and the legalization of gay marriage has failed as the SDLP abandoned their kangaroo-court Assembly meeting, thereby preventing any blocking legislation being passed.

They must now be worried about Sinn Féin's call for a border poll after Brexit..........
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Old Oct 23rd 2019, 5:27 pm
  #68  
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Last week they were threatening Dublin with "consequences" for insisting on a workable strategy for the border post-Brexit, safe in belief that Boris was backing them up.

Then Boris kicked them into the long grass by removing their veto over Brexit border arrangements in his proposals and reintroducing the concept of a border in the Irish Sea.
The DUP duped

That's about the only amusing thing to come out of all this.

Didn't anybody ever tell them the old British adage "Never trust a Tory"?

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Old Oct 23rd 2019, 5:32 pm
  #69  
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Given recent events in NI, I'm surprised that nobody has revisited this....

Recent events must all seem like the stuff of nightmares for the DUP.

Last week they were threatening Dublin with "consequences" for insisting on a workable strategy for the border post-Brexit, safe in belief that Boris was backing them up.

Then Boris kicked them into the long grass by removing their veto over Brexit border arrangements in his proposals and reintroducing the concept of a border in the Irish Sea.

Now, their last-ditch attempt to prevent changes to the abortion law and the legalization of gay marriage has failed as the SDLP abandoned their kangaroo-court Assembly meeting, thereby preventing any blocking legislation being passed.

They must now be worried about Sinn Féin's call for a border poll after Brexit..........
I have to say that about the only good thing that has happened in this whole mess is getting to watch the DUP get thrown under the bus like that. And then having them watch, mouths agape, as Northern Ireland blasts its way into the 21st century with the recent changes in the law. It's like the warm embrace of a steaming hot cup of tea after you get in from the rain.
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Old Oct 23rd 2019, 6:52 pm
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
The DUP duped

That's about the only amusing thing to come out of all this.

Didn't anybody ever tell them the old British adage "Never trust a Tory"?
Given that "tory" comes from the Irish for a robber (tóraí), you'd have though they might guess! But silly me, the DUP object to the Irish language, don't they..... then again, in Scottish Gaelic it exists as tòraidh......... and they should be far more comfortable with that!
Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing View Post
I have to say that about the only good thing that has happened in this whole mess is getting to watch the DUP get thrown under the bus like that. And then having them watch, mouths agape, as Northern Ireland blasts its way into the 21st century with the recent changes in the law. It's like the warm embrace of a steaming hot cup of tea after you get in from the rain.
I am really, really trying not to sound triumphalist, but it's a joy to see the blockers blocked, the imposers imposed upon - or as my cousin Seán siad (with not a hint or irony) "The buggers buggered"!!!.

When the DUP start objecting to things as "being against the spirit of the Good Friday agreement", you know they're in trouble.

Now, now, as they saying goes "Tiocfaidh an duilliúr agus ansin an bláth", the leaves will come and then the flowers..........
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Old Oct 23rd 2019, 6:58 pm
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Given that "tory" comes from the Irish for a robber (tóraí), you'd have though they might guess! But silly me, the DUP object to the Irish language, don't they..... then again, in Scottish Gaelic it exists as tòraidh......... and they should be far more comfortable with that!

I am really, really trying not to sound triumphalist, but it's a joy to see the blockers blocked, the imposers imposed upon - or as my cousin Seán siad (with not a hint or irony) "The buggers buggered"!!!.

When the DUP start objecting to things as "being against the spirit of the Good Friday agreement", you know they're in trouble.

Now, now, as they saying goes "Tiocfaidh an duilliúr agus ansin an bláth", the leaves will come and then the flowers..........
Ah, sure we're all one big island anyway. Better we all just ride this storm out together. But you lot have to renumber your motorways, our M1 and M2 came first

Oh I do love seeing the DUP get screwed over, it's so completely deserved.
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Old Oct 25th 2019, 2:23 pm
  #72  
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing View Post
Ah, sure we're all one big island anyway. Better we all just ride this storm out together. But you lot have to renumber your motorways, our M1 and M2 came first

Oh I do love seeing the DUP get screwed over, it's so completely deserved.
It's about the only good thing that has come out of this fiasco. To get re-unification there would need to be a vote, askd for by the NI parliament, which hasn't met for such a long time because the two main parties can't ot won't get on together. I did think the threat of the abortion and same sex marriage would mean that the DUP would try to get something worked out, but no, so now two of their cornerstones have gone down the drain.
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Old Oct 25th 2019, 2:39 pm
  #73  
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by mikelincs View Post
It's about the only good thing that has come out of this fiasco. To get re-unification there would need to be a vote, askd for by the NI parliament, which hasn't met for such a long time because the two main parties can't ot won't get on together. I did think the threat of the abortion and same sex marriage would mean that the DUP would try to get something worked out, but no, so now two of their cornerstones have gone down the drain.
The reunification vote was always part of the Good Friday Agreement, and in the 99 years of Northern Ireland's existence the 'protestant majority' has dropped from 4/6 counties to about one. Now protestant doesn't always mean unionist, and there are unionist catholics and republican protestants of course, but I have no idea how a reunification vote would go if it were triggered in the next 5 years. It should be plainly obvious to the unionist community that the British government they claim to love so much couldn't give a damn about NI unless it suits them.
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Old Oct 25th 2019, 3:19 pm
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by SultanOfSwing View Post
It should be plainly obvious to the unionist community that the British government they claim to love so much couldn't give a damn about NI unless it suits them.

Surely that's always been the case for the whole island.
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Old Oct 25th 2019, 3:33 pm
  #75  
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Default Re: Why do we need to hang on to NI, anyhow?

Originally Posted by Lion in Winter View Post
Surely that's always been the case for the whole island.
No, only a country who deeply cares about all corners of its lands would unleash a genocide that would forever reduce the population of said corner by 2 million, while forcing them to export all their good crops.
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