Go Back  British Expats > General > Take it Outside!
Reload this Page >

Welcome to the 21st Century.

Welcome to the 21st Century.

Old Jan 1st 2022, 10:52 pm
  #16  
 
Lion in Winter's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Location: City of Broad Shoulders
Posts: 66,626
Lion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond reputeLion in Winter has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Welcome to the 21st Century.

Originally Posted by zzrmark View Post
Have they though?
I learned a very valuable lesson way back in high school and that was that a racist (and presumably any other kind of distasteful type) very rarely changes their spots. However, because most of them are cowards, you can put an instant halt to their BS to you and those around you by kicking the living crap out of them.
In this our experiences match, only I was in London.
Lion in Winter is offline  
Old Jan 3rd 2022, 3:46 am
  #17  
Pacifist Ape
 
Shard's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 22,840
Shard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Welcome to the 21st Century.

Originally Posted by zzrmark View Post
Have they though?
I learned a very valuable lesson way back in high school and that was that a racist (and presumably any other kind of distasteful type) very rarely changes their spots. However, because most of them are cowards, you can put an instant halt to their BS to you and those around you by kicking the living crap out of them. My only regret is that I didn't do it several years earlier.

Nowadays, I get the odd hick gobbing off about Muslims and immigrants while dribbling over the fact that I'm an Englishman and because I'm slightly more subtle than my 15 year old self I let them know that my family departed Persia far more recently than when their ancestors came to the US. For the exceptionally mentally challenged (oddly enough, most of them) I have to then let them know where Persia is. It hasn't yet failed to shut the ignorant f***ers up.
Some 21st century compassion it seems.
Shard is offline  
Old Jan 6th 2022, 1:32 am
  #18  
Concierge
 
spouse of scouse's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2013
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 19,217
spouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond reputespouse of scouse has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Welcome to the 21st Century.

A beautiful story about a nine year old girl Ellie, who always knew she was a girl. Ellie is lucky, although her Mum was initially resistant she researched, learned and sought professional support for herself and her daughter.

Ellie is an intelligent and articulate child, confident in her community, supported by her family, and so happy to simply be who she is.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-...tity/100695208
spouse of scouse is offline  
Old Jan 6th 2022, 12:15 pm
  #19  
Resident Cynic
 
macliam's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Suffolk,UK; Alentejo, Portugal
Posts: 9,956
macliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Welcome to the 21st Century.

I'm late to this conversation, but many comments have reflected my thinking. Generally, I am supportive of those who are othered (except where this comes from the choice to hurt). The trans debate has me conflicted, but only where it seems people are forced to accept change, rather than persuaded to do so - however, I am firmly on the side of choice for the individuals concerned.

I was brought up in an era of homophobia, where men risked jail because of what they were and were forced to comply with what society demanded of them at risk of punishment. We have friends who are a gay couple and have been together for as long as SWMBO and I - and I genuinely celebrate the fact that Portugal recognizes them as a couple without any need for legal declarations, etc. (although they are married, this wasn't dome for legal recognition). I am also proud that the UK and Ireland have also turned their back on the prejudice of the past in this and many other situations. To me, it shows that my home has, at last, come of age.

Most of you will know that I don't hide my background, or my pride in it, however your mental picture would be disturbed if you met me. Despite our home on Shannonside, my parents had very soft accents and mine was hardly noticeable when I arrived in the UK at age 16. That was in 1970, so those of you with a knowledge of recent history will recognize that this was somewhat of a blessing and my time in the West Country passed without major incident (although I had to bite my tongue when bigotry raised its head). I became a chameleon, as far as accent was concerned, so that even today, people know I'm "not from here", but can't put a finger on my background - some recognize the odd phrase, many confuse the long vowels of the West with the long vowels of my home..... basically, I could stay in the nationality closet with ease. Of interest, my uncle, who joined us later, went the other way and became almost "stage Irish" as a reaction to the prejudice he saw (though the fact he had been welterweight boxing champion of Southern Command probably insulated him from immediate challenge!). This all may seem to be a million miles away from trans issues and/or homophobia, but think about it......

The other thing you will not know, but that impacted my development, is the "othering" I encountered in Ireland as a kid. Those of you with long memories may recall that I celebrated the history of my grandfather, who was a CQMS in the National Army Military Police, after his service in WW1. Again, those of you without an intimate knowledge of recent Irish history may be unaware of the divisions stoked by our civil war after independence, or what my grandfather's position would have meant. Limerick had been strongly anti-treaty, as was much of Munster, and even after the truce the old enmeties remained. Added to this, our leadership was largely drawn from those who had opposed the Free State - and fought against my grandfather. So, whilst there was no overt discrimination, I was a "stater" at a time when unemployment, poverty and hard times meant that the "old" republican sympathy was never far below the surface. So now think of the smile on my face when certain erstwhile "opponents" on this site ignorantly attemprted to paint me as a rabid anti-british republican!!!

Life is far more complex than the bigot can imagine!


macliam is offline  
Old Jan 7th 2022, 7:13 am
  #20  
Listen to the Music
 
dave_j's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Fraser Valley BC
Posts: 3,789
dave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond reputedave_j has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Welcome to the 21st Century.

Originally Posted by macliam View Post
Life is far more complex than the bigot can imagine!
As you so rightly say, life is complex and anyone who, even momentarily, considers biological processes will wonder at the four leafed clover or the albino and conclude that a spectrum of outcomes is inevitable where complex biological processes are involved.
What's unsettling are the pigeon holes that societies create to avoid accepting this fact with an inevitable denial that variations from the mean exist.
But it need not be like this.
Like you I was brought up at a time when homophobia was rampant and yet I can state truthfully that at the single sex boys school I attended there was never even a hint at discrimination.
As boys we knew that a few among us were subtly different but never were they subjected to any unwelcome attention and this applied to everyone, teachers included and this in the 1960's.

You'll know that I've had a few things to say about my views of the island of ireland and the politics there that continue to ensure differences in culture remain incompatible with the concept of compromise.
I mean no harm, I merely comment on how an observer views the religious based conflict on a trapped populous.
I understand that english involvement in ireland has not been good and I can only wonder at the effect this would have a young boy existing within a repressive society, but time passes.
I can see how the 'otherness' allows such a subject to understand otherness in others, but you don't have had to suffered this otherness to realise it's existence.
As boys in a south london school, religious, sexual or even financial backgrounds made no impact and it still doesn't for me.

What I'm trying to say is that discrimination doesn't need to exist, it's up to the individual to rationalise how he/she views others and to realise that we're really all the same beneath the skin, bipedal animals apes living on a warming planet.



dave_j is online now  
Old Jan 8th 2022, 2:13 am
  #21  
BE Forum Addict
 
zzrmark's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2014
Location: Lauren's Co. SC by way of Palmetto, Florida
Posts: 3,224
zzrmark has a reputation beyond reputezzrmark has a reputation beyond reputezzrmark has a reputation beyond reputezzrmark has a reputation beyond reputezzrmark has a reputation beyond reputezzrmark has a reputation beyond reputezzrmark has a reputation beyond reputezzrmark has a reputation beyond reputezzrmark has a reputation beyond reputezzrmark has a reputation beyond reputezzrmark has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Welcome to the 21st Century.

Originally Posted by Shard View Post
Some 21st century compassion it seems.
Don't tar me with the Gen Z (or whatever we're at now) label, my views on racists and the like are no different this century than they were in the last. There was no excuse for it then and there's no excuse for it now and anybody that tells you otherwise can f*** off.
zzrmark is offline  
Old Jan 8th 2022, 2:55 am
  #22  
Somewhere rather noisy .
 
BEVS's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2003
Location: Below
Posts: 37,318
BEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond reputeBEVS has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Welcome to the 21st Century.

Originally Posted by zzrmark View Post
Don't tar me with the Gen Z (or whatever we're at now) label, my views on racists and the like are no different this century than they were in the last. There was no excuse for it then and there's no excuse for it now and anybody that tells you otherwise can f*** off.
Absolutely.

No place for it then. No place for it now . No place for it here .

Karma for the post.
BEVS is offline  
Old Jan 8th 2022, 5:03 am
  #23  
Pacifist Ape
 
Shard's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 22,840
Shard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond reputeShard has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Welcome to the 21st Century.

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post

What I'm trying to say is that discrimination doesn't need to exist, it's up to the individual to rationalise how he/she views others and to realise that we're really all the same beneath the skin, bipedal animals apes living on a warming planet.


Shard is offline  
Old Jan 8th 2022, 10:07 am
  #24  
Resident Cynic
 
macliam's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2013
Location: Suffolk,UK; Alentejo, Portugal
Posts: 9,956
macliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond reputemacliam has a reputation beyond repute
Default Re: Welcome to the 21st Century.

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
As you so rightly say, life is complex and anyone who, even momentarily, considers biological processes will wonder at the four leafed clover or the albino and conclude that a spectrum of outcomes is inevitable where complex biological processes are involved..........
V
V
What I'm trying to say is that discrimination doesn't need to exist, it's up to the individual to rationalise how he/she views others and to realise that we're really all the same beneath the skin, bipedal animals apes living on a warming planet.
We can violently agree on your last point - and probably much else - but there are a couple of things with which I'd take issue or which I think need expansion.

I too went to single-sex schools - and more, I was taught first by nuns and then by christian brothers (their male equivalents). With all the negatives about the influence of the church (and there are many) I can honestly say I never saw, or knew of, any incidences of paedophilia or the like, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen or that incidents weren't covered up, etc. With regard to homosexuality, again it is statistically obvious that some of the 90-odd guys in a year group were gay, but, hand on heart, I couldn't say who..... because to be gay at that time meant keeping it a secret, something to be ashamed of and something that would "damage" their prospects. So I don't see my experience as being a touchstone, because I am not gay, so I was blissfully unaware of the issues at the time.

In this I'd take issue with the idea that "societies" do anything, because although a society is a group of individuals bound by common rules, the rules are made by those individuals in reaction to some external force, not due to it. Modern societies are more complex than this and a single individual may not feel able to challenge the "rules", but we are all responsible for the constructs that have been put in place to decide the rules and enforce them. It's a moot point but I feel that blaming "society" for something is a way to avoid personal responsibility for it.

On the Ireland front, the North is a mess.... and I don't blame people today for the actions of the past, but equally there is a responsibility to recognize the damage that such actions caused. Again it is a complex issue and not one that will be cured by knee-jerk reactions. Oddly (you may think), I feel great sympathy for the loyalists/unionists there (though not for the actions of extremists on either side), because, like the boers in South Africa, I see them as "beached whales", with nowhere to go as history progresses and no likely outcome that will give them what they want. I think the frustration at this is what drives much of the vehemence displayed, because every concession is a step backwards (Sultan might not thank me for my sympathy, but I think he would understand what I mean). However, the vast majority of people in the six counties are no different to people elsewhere, they just want to get on with their lives.... but they are trapped in a bubble that impacts their ability to do so. (I'd urge anyone to watch Kenneth Branagh's "Belfast" to get some feel for that). So I don't celebrate any "victories" and although I'm pleased that the crimes of the past are behind us, I still see many challenges in the future - and there is a responsibility for all of us to lend a hand in this. That's why I get a bit shirty with those who seem to treat the subject lightly or as something easily solved - and that comes on both sides of the equation, because history makes me no friend to the extreme republicans either. That's why I celebrate the massive leap forward that the Republic has made of late, because it has come of age and can be somewhere that people actually want to live.

If you honestly feel that you have not been affected by the prejudices of the past, then you are lucky. I know I have been, but I also know I used that experience to move forward, so whilst I'm always aware of what was, I'm more anxious of what will be. I'm also aware that many, many people were not so lucky and were broken in the process and I feel it's my responsibility to speak and act for them too. That is the root of my politics, not adherence to any one philosophy or doctrine
macliam is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.